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Flipping

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Old 09-15-2010, 01:51 PM
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Daryl Daryl is offline
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Flipping
To flip the Clubhead at Impact:

1. Slow or prevent the Right Elbow from Straightening
2. Run out of Right Arm

Open for discussion.

Last edited by Daryl : 09-15-2010 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 09-15-2010, 03:45 PM
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quit or flinch
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Old 09-15-2010, 05:01 PM
airair airair is offline
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Let an expert on the subject comment this: In a total motion swing, you begin violently from the top with your right shoulder, OTT steep down, hitting as hard as you can at the ball coming out-to-in, casting the clubhead with no lag what so ever and continue with a chicken wing and the flipping takes care of its self. Trust me. If you want to move lots of turf and have a banana slice (or a big pull) you get that as well.

I hope this doesn't tempt you to try any of this. It's not worth it.

Last edited by airair : 09-15-2010 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 09-15-2010, 11:26 PM
hbear55 hbear55 is offline
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I have problem with running out of right arm. Does anybody have suggestions about how to go about fixing this problem?
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Old 09-15-2010, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Daryl View Post
To flip the Clubhead at Impact:

1. Slow or prevent the Right Elbow from Straightening
2. Run out of Right Arm

Open for discussion.
I'll take #2 for $200 Alex.
Even though #1 will also flip if the pivot stops early or right wrist prematurely straightens.

To prevent #2 keep the right shoulder moving down plane and the pivot moving to the finish position.
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Old 09-16-2010, 01:25 AM
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3)Swing at the ball instead of through
4)Don't rotate your upper body in the back swing. Tilt as far as you get and then do the rest with the arms.
5)Don't keep the left wrist flat. Give the hands a head start going down and let the clubhead pass the hands at the "right" moment.
6) Don't worry about making a proper follow thru. Only what happens towards impact matters.
7) (This was a tip from David Feherty. He gave it on a clinic in Oslo several years ago): To chip out of thick rough: Hit it before you hit it. (It works pretty well!!!)
(number eight is in good shape today) Don't try to hit down on the ball. You must try to lift it up!!
9) Do whatever you want as long as you don't take a turf.
10)The false flip: Swing with both hands & let both hands combined be the flat left wrist. If you do it with a proper rhythm, if the club isn't in the process of outracing the hands, you will have lag pressure through impact even though the left wrist is bent.
11) Don't learn to pivot properly. Just focus on the right side and become a "hitter" instead.
12) Don't trust centrifugal force. Steer the clubhead instead of the hands.
13) Release accumulator #2 early and hard. Better to prepare the club head for impact as soon as possible.
14) Take deep divots (more about that below)

Some of these are really bad, others are OK and some are desirable for the right shot.

When I had played golf for about one season, a full 9 iron went max 100 yards. And it happened more than once that the ball hardly moved when I hit a full sand wedge from fluffy lies in the rough Even on straight shots the club just sliced under the ball. I really knew H2 flip the ball

Kelvin Miyahira just posted a long story about different release pattern on the PGA tour. He presented pictures that showed that many of the best players in the world are flippers. If it's done "right" it's not the end of the world.

Flipping is usually associated with a bending & break down of the left wrist prior to impact. That was also Miyahira's approach when he wrote about it. But if I understand English and a little golf, the golf flip is a motion where the left wrist is in the process towards bending prior to impact; from arched to bent, from more arched to less arched, from arched to flat, from a little bent to more bent or from flat to bent.

Based on that definition you can flip into the ball or through the ball and get through impact and then some before the left wrist breaks down. As long as the left wrist is arching prior to impact and arched or flat during impact.

I tend to take unhealthy deep divots from time to time. So deep that the distance becomes inconsistent. I attribute that to flipping. But even when I hit the ball well I often take deeper divots than a flip free stroke should produce. But it isn't necessarily a problem. As long as the left wrist isn't bent at impact you keep all your lag pressure.

A punch shot is in this regard a flip waiting to happen. You gotta keep driving or CF will send the clubhead past the hands too early. You can keep the rhythm, keep the hands a few degrees ahead on teh swing path, but it's difficult. Second best is to have some left wrist left at impact even though the flip is blossoming. The acid test is to punch a lob wedge really hard and really low without taking a deep divot. Then you know that you've got your rhythm under control. The left wrist isn't flat when you do that. But it's deviation from flat has to be close to constant through the impact zone. It's like hitting the ball with a constant offset between the hands and the clubhead. You really need to hit the ball with your hands (and not the clubhead) to pull it off.

The easiest way to eliminate flipping completely is to do what Daryl does: Use a pure swing pattern where centrifugal force keep the left wrist and the clubhead synchronized and basically on the same rpm through the impact zone. And where dead hands' doesn nothing to prevent this from happening. The price is that you will be unable to manipulate how high you hit the ball. You will hit it high. You can make the stroke even more flip-robust by applying a sweep release instead of a late snap. The late snap has a lot of clubhead speed and very little hands speed for a while and is therefore more likely to produce a flip. But if you sweep release you will get a long and nice journey towards impact where centrifugal force keeps the hands and the clubhead on the same rpm.

As soon as you add a punch or some other form of active right hand in there, you introduce an additional lag in the stroke that CF just would luuv to eliminate before impact. And if you shorten the release interval and release late, you shorten the path where the hands and the club travel with basically the same rpm. But who wants to sweep through the ball with dead hands if they can add some snap and some punch to it? I do. But not in the long game.
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Old 09-16-2010, 07:41 AM
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Great Post BerntR. Can you post a link to the Kelvin Miyahira article?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
RHYTHM Example – crankshaft and connecting rods.
Mechanical –Holding all components of a rotating motion to the same R.P.M.
Golf – Holding both Lever Assemblies to the same basic R.P.M. throughout the Stroke while overtaking all other Components at a steady, even rate.
Is RHYTHM is the Opposite of Flipping? I don't think that "opposite" is the right word. Although "Flipping" has many singular or multiple causes, will focusing on their elimination result in RHYTHM, or may learning RHYTHM eliminate "Flipping"?
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Old 09-16-2010, 08:12 AM
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If the left wrist "breaks down" after the ball is gone . . . is it a flip or could it just be the way that individual's flail works?
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Old 09-16-2010, 08:23 AM
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http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyl...se-styles.html

Here's the article . . . . . I take issue with some of this . . . where does grip type come into this? Could the golfer be trying to play a "shot" . . . what about the pivot type? For instance . . . he says Lee Westwood is a "tour flipper" or whatever . . . well the freakin' dude's head drops two feet in the downstroke . . . if he didn't shrink up his left arm (RADIUS) . . you'da never heard of him and he's one of the best ball strikers out there . . probably swings the club on plane as good as anybody. What about shut faced player vs. open face . . .that's gonna dictate some of the release motion . . . what about plane shifting . . . .

The bottom line . . . . READ 2-L #2 . . . .
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Old 09-16-2010, 11:16 AM
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BerntR BerntR is offline
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Thanks Daryl,

And where have YOU been, 12 pc? This place isn't the same when you're absent.

I wasn't as impressed with Miyahira's blog this time as I am usually. He seems to be more on home ground when he discusses topics between the shoulders and the feet. But I found some of the photos very telling.

I think good rhythm is required to eliminate flipping, or to delay it until past impact.

HK basically introduced rhythm as a relationship between the left arm and the club. But there's more to rhythm than just left arm and the club. Quoting 6-B-4-0:
Quote:
"Left Arm Power" in any form or amount can still be considered #4 Accumulator Action. Otherwise it actually substitutes for the Pivot to introduce the circular motion required to produce Centrifugal Force
I think the word "substitute" is important here. This substitution is really a sort of arms flip. When what happens in the shoulder socket i geometrically very similar to what happens when the left wrist breaks down. As long as you swing your arms around the pivot your left shoulder will not be well aligned for an effective rope pulling. You will get max benefit from the pull from your left shoulder when the lead - lag relationship between the shoulder pull and the left hand is coordinated. I am tempted to say constant, but I'm not sure about that. The release of club changes the game as it happens.

When you blast off the chest in a swinger's procedure you will have a lot of Accumulator #4 lag pressure while you're blasting and not much when the arms fly off the chest. You will have some effective shoulder turn generated lag pressure for impact, but you better max the usage of Accumulator #4 while the pressure is really on. It is the part of the swing when the shoulder turn and the arm is 100% synchronized that gives the "effortless" power. And I believe that goes for other stroke patterns than 12-2-0 as well. I have personally come to regard the pp#4 pressure more as a monitor than a power source. I can basically hit the ball equally hard with more or less PP# 4 pressure at the top as long as I am able to synchronize the shoulder turn and the arms.

Further, I am convinced that it is the "pulling the left arm out of it's socket effort" - combined with structural support from extencior action (or driveloading) that produces the most power. PP# 4 is like a soft cusion by comparison. But maybe that's because I'm not a hardbody

It is very common - particularly amongst high handicappers - to have an underdeveloped shoulder turn and then compensate by swinging the arms around the shoulders. They can't feel the weight of the club because the left shoulder is running on empty instead of pulling a heavy club head with 5th gear leverage.

I think poor rhythm between the pivot and the arms is a root cause to many bads in golf, including the powerless flip.
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