9-1-5...Pics
 

Yoda...It's not the Hogan pics..but they might get the ball rolling....It's now in your court....










AS

annakin what are you trying to show from these pics of the slammer

Nice pics, but I had a look at 9-1-5 and couldn't figure out what the pics here were supposed to tell us.
All I can see is a stationary head on the backswing from the slammer.
Alex

Possibly something to do with Standard Knee Action meaning more Hip Tilt and the Stationary Post/Head. And what about the Foot Flare?. Wow!
"Take it back slow and romp it up the barrelhead!". Play it again Sam!.

And maybe a Shiftless Hip Turn (Backstroke only)?.

You're all over it . . . Standard Knee Action - "This sequence produces maximum Hip slant at each end of the Stroke."

Now for the WHY?

Show Some Backbone, Will Ya?
 

Many modern Instructors teach that the Head should move to the right on the Backstroke and that the Shoulders turn over the Right Knee. Case in point: the classic 'folded arms across the chest' drill with the Head Swayed over the Right Foot. In essence, they teach that the upper part of the spine moves away from the Target on the Backstroke.

Which way would you guys say the lower part of Sam's spine moves?

tripod
 

Looks like the tripod to me, hopefully in the 7th edition... stationary head, and hula hula.

2-H: "Though the 'Head' Pivot Center is recommended, it is not at all mandatory."

The two sides of the coin are interpereted from this sentence. My side: Homer recommends a stationary head. Another side: Your head doesn't have to sit still. He recommends it for a reason. By the way, a stationary head IS a Basic Essential. But others say the head can sway, and they even promote it. It's what I was taught to do, to no avail. I was even told that this (a sway) creates power. :confused: Am I in the ballpark, Yoda??

Snead was PRETTY long . . .

The Centered Pivot
 

Close, young Luke. Very close.

Actually, Homer is saying that something at the upper end of the Pivot -- not necessarily the Head -- must remain Stationary to stabilize the motion. He recommended the Head as the Pivot Center because you can tell when it moves (you can see more 'under' the Ball). However, you can alternatively choose to keep the top of the spine -- the point 'between the shoulders' -- stationary. Either way, there is no Sway. In both cases, there is a Centered Pivot Motion. It is all a matter of what the player monitors.

This is probably one of the best posts on the "through the head" pivot center or "through the base of the neck" pivot center debates.

Good stuff Yoda!

The Truth -- From The Homes Of Golf
 

In the search for Truth, it helps to be able to call on friends from around the world. Exposed below is a major myth -- the 'away leaning' spine in the Backstroke. From Scotland, the Home of Golf, to your desktop, the Home of Lynn Blake Golf.

Thanks, Mathew!

Thanks Yoda :) - Just glad you like it :)

Here is another look...

The Head Movers Vs. The Non-Head Movers
 

I know you've been itching to get into this, Brian, and I knew you'd be here ASAP. So here we go! Please state your case. :D

Here is some more...

These pictures were precisely done.

They just show a different look—just another way.;)

There are three problems with your Snead photos:

a)Your lines are generous towards your argument (I checked - because I know how to use photoshop properly....lol)

b) Your photos are taken dead-on his stance line which creates a parallax problem since snead hit shots with his driver with a closed stance

C) You do not take in consideration 1-L-2 - The post may turn (players head) but not sway or bob....

Here is a deadly accurate version of the tripod on snead..... (note the nice size of my picture too...lol)

Mathew,

All you are showing is that Snead did it more than one way.

I agree.

My pics are PRECISE too, as I'll put my photoshop skills up there with you, great one.;)

Also, I fudged them in your arguement's direction.

Come on, let's just agree there is MORE THAN ONE DAMN WAY.

Cool?

Oh yeah...

...also notice I cleaned up your work ;), (much clearer...lol)

and these...

Waiting For The Opening Argument
 

Please, Brian. State your case. We can (and will) get into the photos later.

hi brian could you please post a brief description of the way you are trying to highlight, i must have missed it. i myself prefer a pivot where i turn more around my spine like snead which for me means standard knee action

Head on
 

Has anyone got pics of great players tilting their head on the other side of the Tripod?

Brian, would you say that if you were to sway your head to one side, it's better to be towards the right foot than the left? And why?

Lynn, I would like to state my case in reverse—if that's ok.

I FIRMLY believe that the Imperatives should dictate the components.

And, in the real world of teaching, choosing a 'pivot center'—the head or the base of the neck—is a component of sorts, a choice that the teacher needs to make in an area that has to be done, but can be done differently.

If I can get a student to COMPRESS the ball with lag pressure, 'draw' a straight Plane Line, & control the clubface with Hinge Action—and do it with a perfectly still head—then I do it.

But, from an athletic function standpoint, and from a pure performance standpoint, the base of the neck PIVOT CENTER works more of the time and is employed more of the time by world-class players over the years, in my opinion.

Also in my opinion, the IDEA that the head PERFECTLY between the feet and VERY STILL during the swing, is an IDEA that would hurt more people than it would help.

But, like Big Don Villavaso says "As sure as Gawd made little green apples," you could teach ALL of your students to have a head that is PERFECTLY between the feet and DEAD STILL during the swing, and be a very, very successful teacher.

I just believe—in my limited experience—that it is an OPTION, just like a Shoulder Turn Takeaway is an option, and an option that can help the right student at the right time.

I am VERY SORRY that Ted Fort had a tough time with the idea. As well as having trouble with a double shift, swinging, etc.

Ted, I think your swing is a good one, but I have NO DOUBT that I—as well as many others—could have taught you to have a through-the-neck pivot center and made you into a very good player, like you are.

When I started teaching David Toms, he had a dead still head, almost no hip turn, and sometimes never got the club on the Turned Shoulder Plane. So I "fixed" him.

Looking back, maybe I should have left his head still.

Of course, if you had a time machine, would you risk his career and life to find out if I was wrong or right?;)

head is round
 

I think what is missing is that the head is round and takes more space then a straight line. It rotates in its space like Mac. I only see Toms with a major shift to the right. Where you draw that line creates the debate.

Hope you don't take offense, but..

Top two pictures, something is out of whack. The backgrounds which should be static are not the same. I think the camera was moved between shots or something. The camera in one is higher than the other, and also closer.

Again there is a difference between frames regarding the background and your red line is definitely not in the same place if you use the background as a reference.

The Tom's pictures I think really give the wrong impression as well. Using the tree braches to the left at the top and his head, it hasn't move near what your lines indicate. Not saying it doesn't move a bit, but those lines make me think he is about to fall over and I doubt seriously that would be a product of your instruction.

Also the Snead pictures have questions regarding the background including the position of the ball to feet. Something is just not the same about both.

Interesting concept that the stationary head or neck would be considered a psuedo component/variation.

Realizing that the First essential is a Stationary Head, though 2-H does state it is recommended not mandatory. But when reading 1-L-1 and 1-L-2 it seems that the head is indicated and that it can move (turn) by the action of the pivot but not on its own.

So what in the Pivot would require the head to move? Wouldn't the pivot only require a turning? How can you move the head without disrupting the top of the spine unless you bend at the neck to lay the head down on the shoulder?

MARTEE:
"Top two pictures, something is out of whack. The backgrounds which should be static are not the same. I...The camera in one is higher than the other, and also closer."

MANZELLA:
The picture are not in a 'sequence,' so what?

The ball position is almost exact, so the angle is the same for reference sake. And at the top of THIS swing, Hogan's head is NOT PRECISELY IN THE MIDDLE OF HIS FEET!

MARTEE:
"Again there is a difference between frames regarding the background and your red line is definitely not in the same place if you use the background as a reference."

MANZELLA:
Nope. It is not in a squence (see above). But the two picture were lined up PERFECTLY in Photoshop and the ball and the red line are EXACTLY THE SAME!!!

Hogan, simply turned around his spine on this day.


MARTEE:
The Tom's pictures...blah, blah, blah....

MANZELLA:
Very shortly, on my new site, Mike Finney will post his entire swing video collection.

Trust me, Mike numbers are dead on.

But, like I said....go ahead and put your head precisely between your feet and keep it there.:rolleyes:

What's My Line?
 

I think everybody can see what is going on here (use Augusta National's background magnolias as a reference, not the drawn lines). But just in case...

Mathew?

What does that mean Lynn?

I said nothing about sequence...



Yes, the pictures speak for themselves...

They are not from a sequence.

I was very clear.

I see what is happening here, too.

If you are trying to prove that all great players had the head precisely between their feet and kept it dead still on the backswing and on to impact...

You can't win.

I AM saying that having the head precisely between the feet and keeping it dead still on the backswing and on to impact IS A VALID way.

But so is the base of the neck center.

But... here are pics that are lined up sequence photos.

(prediction: they still won't convice the peanut gallery)

Billy Casper...51 wins...a couple of majors....

Locating The Pivot Swing Center
 

You're right, Brian. Fortunately, that is not the case.

But thank you for the Billy Casper illustration. With his chin is pointed at the back of that Ball from Address to the end of the Follow-Through and with his Right Forearm Pick-Up, he is my favorite example.

The truth is that, unlike your self-mandated Head position, Homer Kelley advised...

Wherever you position your Head at Impact Fix...

THAT is where it must stay.

Ideally, though, according to the same Mr. Kelley, that position is "precisely between the feet." This is TREMENDOUSLY important ground we are exploring here, ground that will revolutionize conventional golf instruction.

Actually, we're all the way back to 1905 and Harry Vardon's book, The Complete Golfer ...

"The head should be kept perfectly motionless from time of the address until the ball has been sent away and it is well on its flight."

And Mr. Vardon had the Game -- and the Pivot -- to prove it.

Lynn,

I wish you the best with the "precisely between the feet and still" head/center concept, and you wish to revolutionize golf with it.

I will agree on this...if you got everyone to do it, it would "revolutionize golf.";)

Holding Tight To The Hindenberg Lines
 

I think we can both agree that these home video 'stills' are not representative of the Ben Hogan who won four United States Opens. The Stroke illustrated is a Sway. And, at his greatest, Ben Hogan did not Sway.

The Basic Tenets of Homer Kelley's Golfing Machine are contained in 1-L #1 and #2:

#1 The Stationary Post (Player's Head) accurately returns the Clubhead to the Ball (Centered Arc).

#2 The Post may Turn (Pivot), but it does not Sway or Bob.

These concepts are central to the thesis. Centered Arc. You either believe it or you don't. If you do, then you teach according to the precepts of The Golfing Machine. If you do not...well...

You do not.

I will soon post some classic Hogan Ravielli drawings most have not yet seen. Plus fourteen pages of descriptive material in Hogan's own hand.

Lynn,

This should be a good debate on whether the 'through the head pivot center' and the 'base of the neck pivot center' will help more golfers.

But...

You are totally convinced one way.

And that's great.

I could post pics for 99 years that made my point, and no one on your side of the NON-debate will relent.

Cool.

But...remember this:

The WHOLE GOLF WORLD taught this 'perfectly still head stuff' for at least 30 years before I started my teaching.

I saw SO MANY terrible pivots because of it, it was hard to believe.

But...

I know—they were doing it wrong, they weren't using right forearm pickup, they didn't set the flying wedges, they didn't trace with their right forearms, etc. etc.

But,

Lots of famous golfers didn't do ANY of that and they are in the Hall-of-Fame.

So...

That's what makes the world—and the golf instruction world—and the Golfing Machine instruction world—go 'round.

I just think that the IMPERATIVES should dictate all of the components and choices, and you believe something different.

And that's wonderful...

As far as my approach not being "in the book" or "by the book"....

I use the book as a tool, and I believe my method of instruction, IMPERATIVES (the only thing the ball knows) dictating components and choices, to be superior to any other method for the masses of golfers worldwide.

Where The Rubber Leaves The Road
 

Brian...

Please.

Please?

Yup. Please.

Lynn, when you first look at a golfer you are teaching who is hitting hooks, with a strong single action grip, but with un-set wedges and a through the neck pivot center and obvious shoulder turn takeaway, what do you do first?

I think both Yoda and Brian have made their points. It was great seeing all the illustrations. I respect both their knowledge, but I see this discussion heading South soon......

Just an FYI.........