How Do I Start the Club Back?
 

Your thoughts count!

"I" meaning me?
 

There is a bejillion ways but Ive recently changed mine.

I used to:
-with the lower body resisting
-take a "firm triangle" back in "one piece" with my shoulders.
-"covering the line" with the club head staying over the plane line visually. This required my arms to separate from my body (slightly). "Low and wide." Outside the plane going back.
-id get to end with a lot of arm lifting.

This sort of push away with the shoulders and the left arm resulted in little wrist cock, (the elbow not bending) and angled to vertical hinging. Id try to compensate for these things with right wrist cocking and rolling forearms all the time aligned to nothing in particular. Pivot to hands

Now I:
-starting in fix (hitting)
-extensor action already turned on with #1 only! Although Im wondering about #3 when Im swinging from adjusted.
-clear the right hip. No knee action, knee motion only in response to the right hip going back. That is its really just the right hip going back nothing else actively although things do move around a little. The less the better Im thinking although I dont try to hold them still or anything.
- with a relaxed right elbow and a frozen right wrist I use the Right Forearm Takeaway , fanning and bending to take the club back , up and in, while staying on plane.

Hands to pivot when its working. I liken it to sort of two actions pulling other components around but only as much as is necessary (although there is no resistance). No longer any shoulder turn action for instance, now the right arm pulls the inert left via extensor action which pulls the left shoulder around. The right hip pulls the left hip around which pulls the left leg over accordingly. Etc

There is a separation between upper and lower body directionally too. The right hip goes back while the hands or right forearm goes up. The relative amounts of pivot going back and hands going up determining the plane angle. Divergent vectors?

This is where Im at now anyways. But tomorrow is another day after all.

Yoda is this the sort of thing you are looking for?

ob

Yoda what is the best way to clear the right hip on the backswing? fast arms can sometime cause a problem ...would you look at left knee action as initiating or getting mid torso moving a little before arms initiate ...so as to match arm and pivot motions

Nice to see some real input rather than the other endless miniscule details:salut:

Tracing the plane line with the right index finger using the RFT.

Thanks mb. This is something I struggle with.

Hey this thread is working already! How do you trace given the parallax? Edz said something about "covering the foot line", I think, may have it wrong.

ob

up not back
 

Jeff and Ted really helped me with an on-plane takeaway at Cuscowilla. Hard to believe how 'up' it is. I feel like I'm picking the club almost straight up in front of me while I pivot back.

Ask a silly question because someone else may be wondering the same thing!
 

Ok, don't shoot me for my ignorance.

Can someone please explain exactly what is meant by 'tracing' in the phrase, "tracing the plane line with the right index finger"?

Oh that old trick. Bet your wallet was missing after that operation. I used to get my wife to bend over to pick things up all the time too, but that was for other reasons.

But seriously now folks. It is a weird revelation, eh Bambam? Here is a little demonstration for the forum. Take a golf like stance. No club. Put your left hand in your pocket (over your wallet if you are at the Swamp). Hold your shoulders level to the target line, dont move em and take your bent right wrist to your top position opposite the right shoulder. Now turn your shoulders and watch the hands go way back.

To arrive at your selected correct top position when doing this drill, you need to first take your right hand "up" and "back" but hardly "in" at all, prior to the shoulders turning and taking the hands back.

Conclusion: the pivot provides the "in" of the three dimensional takeaway. Backwards, up and in. This to me is what the "marching time" McDonald drill is all about. The separation of the upper and lower bodies direction of movement. The are co ordinated, but aligned in different directions that net out on the inclined plane.

Yoda can advise on how to make this all automatic, hands to pivot, educated hands controlling the pivot etc. Im still thinking about it all personally. My hands still in school and all.

Caveat emptor and out.
ob

Get “rope swinging” feeling at address with waggle. Be conscious of PP#2.

Nice gentle extensor action in backswing to prevent overswinging combined with nice full shoulder turn. This action should get a nice left wrist cock.

How do I start the club back?

I set up (in impact fix) and then take my bent right wrist to the top with extensor action.

If I do this correctly everything else should fall into place.

Can it get any simpler than that!?!?!?!? Very nice GPStyles... I can't wait for the snow to melt to try something just that easy.

Thanks,
Kevin

I have a feeling that there is a big green grin on someone's face.

Kev, I can't remember if it was in Alignment Golf or if it was somewhere else on this wonderful site that 'ol Yoda, said exactly what I posted.

I responded in the same way you did!

Great threads Yoda, the assisted struggle for the 21st Century!

Good post, OB. It was a strange revelation. It also gave me a wicked case of the shanks that took me a couple weeks to shake, but just like every other time I've been to the swamp, my game ultimately improved because of the change.

Is what you are describing a "Turning Shoulder Plane" procedure, OB?

Yep I had the same thing from Jeff. Just pickup and turn. Wierd feeling and one that I am still getting used to.
Alex

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery...ry.php?cat=517 select the Dowels and Wedges video. Watch Yoda trace the plane line with the right index finger.

Hey BBax.

Wasnt trying to but I see how you might have thought that. I have edited my previous post slightly to correct that.

The demonstration was really just to show that regardless of your chosen plane angle the "in" of the three dimensional takeaway is mainly attributable to the pivot.

The arms go up , the pivot goes back. They net out in some manner.

You could do the demo in another manner. With just your right arm and no club, swing back to top as per your normal swing. Then return your shoulders to a parallel to the line position while holding your hand in the air as at top. Your right arm and hand will move considerably closer to the plane line. The degree of "in" you have lost is the degree supplied by the pivot. It will be most of it.

Now when your hands are educated , hands to pivot, the brain sends the hands to their desired place and the pivot follows along accordingly , perfectly without us being conscious of it at all. Like reaching, grabbing for something. We do this all the time and should do it when golfing too.

Regards
ob

I am still flighting the "IN" element...more more hints please.

Been practicing this a lot since Cuscowilla -one reason I've not been posting!
I've got to the stage where I'm trying to start with moving the right hip back and the left knee in, whilst monitoring pp#3.Swinging from the feet.
I have experimented with the shoulders starting the take away ,but I have a tendency to freeze with my right hip if I do this. Keeping your eye on the ball and getting the hands synchronised to the pivot with good rhythm is the key for me -I have a tendency to be very aggressive on the downswing and it really feels very effortless when i get it right.
HULA,HULA!:)

I remember we both had similar takeaway issues when we were at the range together in Hong Kong.

Neil and OB posted some excellent tips here. I had to activate my pivot a little more on the backswing - think about the Macdonald drills for this. Starting with basic and aquired motion also helped, as it was hard to hit the ball with the right amount of 'up' and no pivot, even on short shots. Having somebody watch you do it is the best way to see and feel the right action. It took some convincing on Jeff's part for me to believe I was on plane. :)

A <a href="http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/cmps_index.php?page=proshop">Smart Stick</a> is also a great way to see if you're on plane. flashlights and hand-held lasers are too easily manipulated IMO.

Also, not being so far 'in' with my arms and laid off with the club at the top meant a totally different start down and downswing feel, but that's for another thread...

RF traces the plane line with a left hip turn.

Hey KOC

Is there a chance you are actively turning your shoulders away in startup?

Regards
ob

O.B.

I do not try to take my club back with shoulder...might be my lower part body pivot is too aggressive going back....

Indeed, the feeling of "Up" element is so weak in my golf swing...really need some drills to make my backswing more on plane.

Hmmm. Can I take one last shot at it?

I'm now wondering if your lower body is over rotating and throwing your hands inside? This would be another version of pivot to hands. Its common, I still sometimes suffer from the shoulder turn version of this.

So try this:
-consider the lower body and the arms as going in different directions.
The right hip (only) turns BACK and the right forearm and frozen right wrist go UP.
-working just with the hips consider them as having a set place at which the right hip stops. Ill leave it to you to determine where this is depending on flexibility. Hips at 45 degrees? Or what ever. But feel them stop. That is, in start up clear that right hip back a set amount only and then stop. What is going on up top may pull them around a bit more , that is ok.
-working just with the right arm and hand, no club. With the frozen right wrist bent to the desired amount from fix, put your mind in your right wrist and take it up to your ideal top position. Look, look, look back at Top and take your right hand up there with RFT. Just let your shoulders respond to the hand dont think about the shoulders. This is what we do in normal human motion. Like reaching behind you for a cup off of a high kitchen shelf. You dont think about the pivot when doing that! If your thinking about it all its just the brain sending the hand to the cup. The cup representing Top for the golfer. This is hands to pivot. We do it all day , everyday and should do it in golf too. Put your brain in your hand and it will go where you direct it.

Anyways good luck with it and thanks again for all those amazing videos

ob

Feed What You Need.
 

Swingers set up a "swing-back" motion, Hitters generally a "carry-back" motion all on Plane. Per 2-F, every Component of the Stroke must be adjusted to comply with the Plane. The question then becomes: which Plane?

Depending upon the Plane (7-6,10-6) you choose and any Plane Shifts or Variations (10-6) will require you to vary the Three Dimensional Back, Up and In.

While applying Extensor Action at Start Up the amount of Right Forearm Fanning and Right Forearm Pick-Up (as controlled by The Magic of the Right Forearm, per 7-3) as well as the Pivot have to all be balanced out to keep your motion on Plane all while under the direction of Educated Hands.

Thanks for all inputs…for swinging, any comment for the following:-

Move your arms the least the better, pivot, internal turning will swing the club back, up and in…the club will also set our wrists; you don’t consciously lift the arms…

If this is out of TGM then I must have everything all wrong. How could turning the body take the club up?

Regards
ob

An inward turn produces an outward force. This is similar to what GSED Gregg McHatton preaches and what could be interpreted as Pivot control Hands. The sharper the inward turn the more the club moves away from you and not under Plane. The issue stills lie in the execution. Can the club be moved on the Plane that you have selected consciously or subconsciously.

Very interesting Drew, thanks.

So this would be CF on the backswing is that right? A Pivot driven backswing?

Not knowing Mr McHatton or the full breadth of this, it does on the surface remind me of Knudsons teachings. Pivot to hands. I can imagine it golf wise but only with hands that know where to go. Or for people who already have educated hands, if this makes sense. I dont see it when we are doing normal every day motions. Grabbing a cup off the top shelf in the kitchen, do we wing the shoulders around to throw the arm and hand up to the top shelf? Maybe I am misconstruing things.

No disrespect intended to Mr McHatton. I like Blobman.

ob

Dear O.B.

Drew told the story behind...but I really don't know is that pivot to hand or hand to pivot....Mr. Ben Doyle said in his DVD "The Hands are controlling the pivot, the hands are...come on pivot, take me back, assemble, load me, come on delivery me and releasing through the ball..."

I have a question long in my mind: Can we both monitor the hands and pivot at the same time?

Hi Koc

Its a bit of a chicken and egg thing I guess and very big topic. Biomechanics etc. I love the David Orr RFT video. Thought provoking.

I'd say the Knudsons, Doyles and McHattons of the world already have very educated hands. For them the pivot maybe is supplying a supporting force, to the arms travel. I can see the pivot throwing the arms "back" and "in" but not "up" for instance. There must be something else going on to get the arms up. I think.

For the rest of us mortals if the pivot is throwing the hands off in the wrong direction (normally too far "in" or under the plane ) then I think we should put our minds in our hands and let our brain work with them. Extensor action really helped me with all of this.

Anyways Ill let the bigger brained pro's wade in here, if they feel so inclined.

Regards
ob

Boss Hands
 

Left undirected, the Hands go where the Right Shoulder goes.

In Start Up, that means "inside" the Line. But, the Hands have a choice . . .

And that choice, as the Right Shoulder rotates back -- toward the Plane -- is to point the Sweetspot at the Straight Plane Line.

From the Top, if the Right Shoulder rotates off the Plane -- "outside" the Line instead of toward the Ball -- then the Hands have no choice . . .

They must go along. Geometry -- however On Plane intentioned -- is no match for Off Plane Physics.

:(

Fortunately, Educated Hands understand this phenomenon and control it.

Integrate the Start Down Waggle -- 3-F-5 per 8-7 and 12-3-0 / 7-- into your Pre-Shot Routine.

:golfcart2:

Hi O.B.

I am working on swinging procedure...my perception of "Educated hands" means F.L.V. at address; Cock and Uncock; turn and roll; right wrist bent...monitor the hands instead of the clubhead/clubface...unless we have a very funny grip, centripetal/centrifugal; club design...together with plenty of Look Look Look practice sessions, I think the mission of Hands can be accomplished.

Homer emphatically stated in 9-1:- Hands are not educated until they control the Pivot...and in the same chapter, those pictures show the pivot motion without hands and arms commend.

I also feel that variations of Foot; Knee; and Hip action, flat vs rotated shoulder turn affect the arms and hands path...if we use grabbing a cup off the top shelf in the kitchen and see how the body works, we might not have so much variations….

In my case, I lately try to ingrain V.J. missing piece of work and I have a quite a strong feeling that force from the ground up made my swing start and end. Shots are solid...190 yards par 3 head wind with an 5-i almost got my first ace last Sat :sad2: ...but like drewitgolf said…Can the club be moved on the Plane, the issue stills lie in the execution or I am still missing something or wrong.

KOC

Koc

Its a journey we are on. Im glad to be on it with you and others. Sometimes words fail us but we must keep going. At the end we will sit around and share our stories.

Each of us has his own vessel to fill. Be water my friend.
ob

This is another level of understanding. Until now, Id thought of hands to pivot in regard to the backswing. The on plane move of the right shoulder in start down as hands to pivot too...............hmmmm.....of course.

Thanks Yoda
ob

My last 2 cents...
 

This is one of those pieces of the swing that I doubt I ever would have ever gotten right on my own. The folding right arm started much earlier and felt much more 'up' than I ever imagined, even after reading dozens of posts on the right forarm pickup (I had a 'duh' moment at Cuscowilla with this one). There is a lot of seemingly conflicting pieces of advice around this topic and it's easy to lose site of just tracing the plane line - eg. use less pivot and let the hands lead vs. use more to be sure and clear the right hip, don't lift the arms vs. lift the club from the start, etc... For me extensor action with an earlier bending, 'lifting' right arm was the trick that helped my pivot start taking orders from my hands on the way back. For the most part, the right arm is just folding up and down, and the pivot responds as needed to my intent to trace the plane line. Again for me that meant a little more active right arm and pivot with less active hands, but I imagine it could be totally different for others.

Next Level
 

Thanks, Ben.

There is a terrific video in your post. It may not be 'Moses at The Parting', but for TGMers, it would be close.

My incongruent economic lives -- and my own inertia -- collide in this deficit.

Sorry.

:salut:

Ah ha moment
 

Bam Bam isn't the only one that had a ah ha at Cuscowilla. McHatton says there is no "up" in the golf swing ! Other past teachers all the way back to Ballard had implied the same. I though the pivot put the hands where they needed to go at the top. Since I received "permission to bend the left arm"(left handed golfer) at Cuscowilla and "drink a beer" it has made more sense. I always wondered how the hands got up with a flat shoulder turn. Bend over more and the hands would go more up than around etc. At my age it is critical that my failing brain is not exposed to wrong information. I want just the facts, cut to the chase. I am glad yoda posed his questions and redirected things. Now it is time to hear his answers to his own questions and a summary of the good posts of others. There have been many. Ben Doyle talked about "golf thoughts", tennis thoughts, bike riding thoughts etc". I am convinced that the golf thoughts of, and those endorsed by competent TGMers would be a usable manual for all. Golf thoughts of non TGMers are best left to them. I come to this site to etch in my brain facts I know are reliable and to erase those that are not. Oh, is it true that the Brits are eliminating the apostrophe ??

monitor the hands
 

I'm still a little shaky on how to trace the plane line with the #3 pp. But as a side note to the previous discussion on pivot to hands vs hands to pivot, it occurs to me that if your mind is on you pivot , tracing is likely non existent. Is that right?

Here is a Yoda post from my old TGM file.

ob


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monitor the hands
 

I'm still a little shaky on how to trace the plane line with the #3 pp. But as a side note to the previous discussion on pivot to hands vs hands to pivot, it occurs to me that if your mind is on you pivot , tracing is likely non existent or problematic at best. Is that right? Although still better than monitoring the clubhead.

Here is a YodasLuke post from my old TGM file. I dont have the 7th edition but find this interesting.

ob



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