Rory.....
 

Watching Rory's action this week has been fun, amazing, and interesting...... I've seen him hit some fairly big draws with short irons and really quiet hands, at least a far cry from horizontal hinging. That clubface on the slo-mo ain't doing much of ANYTHING through the strike. Thoughts?

i must be way off, i thought he was "kissing the wrists" real quick through impact with a lot of roll. Classic swingers motion.Dual horizontal. maybe even a flip release per 10-24-f.(off plane throw out)

That pivot is magnificant.

Maybe some hard finish swivel, particularly with driver...... but not even close on some of these short shots. I understand that the plane becomes more vertical, but there is NOTHING going on with that CLUBFACE for a long time through the strike.

Let's break it down!
 

http://youtu.be/ZOLIhU4Jxxk

It's a Swing. :)

Ok, next ?


IC T

Swing Analysis
 

He Lags the club back and through with no Hitter's carry and gets plenty of Down as he hits the ground after striking the ball first.

http://youtu.be/CTJUjGUyHy0


IC T

Ok, so Im not arguing whether or not he's a swinger or whether or not he hits the ground after the golf ball.....for that matter, wasn't looking for an argument period....? If you want to break it down, then how bout one where we can at least SEE the clubface since that's the only thing I was asking feedback on...... okay?, next

Textbook 12-2-0

No argument here!
 

I was trying to expand the thread and to encourage you to chime in with your observations. :)

I was practicing "less is more." :)

IC T

Gotcha ICT, no problem. Its pretty interesting when you really look at it. Sergios hand action is very similar as well...... (face on)

Guru,
Right, obviously swinging.......guess Im asking my question poorly. Let's try again - when a "swinger" like Rory appears to use significant pivot over hands and drastically reduces clubface rotation through the strike for specific clubs or shots, is he " holding" the face? Is he a temporary steerer? Changing hinge action from shot to shot?.......

JT, a big draw with a short iron and angled would require plane line rotation wouldnt it? I see horizontal on Rory most of the time. Love his motion, it made some for some great shots. He "let the motion make the shot". Balance too, even with his driver....... crazy good given how fast he was letting it flow.

He's fast but not over accelerating. He's got Lag and Drag and Im not talking about his left wrist cock when I say this. Its good too by the way.

Yes,a " manipulated" Hands Swinger but not necessarily Steerer unless he's affecting a Vertical Hinge and holding the face square to the hole. In a manner of speaking Vertical is intentional Steering. Well one of the three forms of Steering anyways. Only the True Swinger relies on CF alone to square the face and always via Horizontal. Imagine the shaft as made of string. No amount of hand manipulation will have any effect.

Any golfer , manipulated hands swinger , hitter worth his salt can hold off a shot.....which is hand manipulation. In Homers manner of defining things , cataloguing things he often defined the two extremes and then the middle. True swinging being one extreme and similar to a rock on a string or more correctly a clubface on the end of a string. In his experiments he made a model just like this and it displayed ......Horizontal Hinging. No face manipulation possible. Im still not sure if there is such a thing as a true swinger out there playing golf? Maybe some guys approach it, at times. I dunno.

Good stuff OB. Hard to say there isn't some intentional "steering" or "holding" the face going on with alot of these guys........especially with short shots, and especially the good ones. And yes, I agree.... I would argue that there isn't a pure swinger or hitter on tour. Some with obvious biases but no one is pushing only, pulling only, using CF only, or muscular thrust only......... IMO

A long ways away from one pattern through the bag and around the course.....

Especially with the masters level of golfers. Im no master but I hit my knock downs, can Swing an Angled hold off approach etc.. Ive been doing/attempting this for years but just didnt know what it was. Now I know and am way better at it given more precision through understanding.

Oh damn , just hexed myself and I have a three day tourney next week. Touch wood, jinx.

I think Lynn could be THE short game guru or shot making guru to the stars (amongst other things). He knows the geometry required and how to do it. He could write the book on impact geometry, ball response and how to pull it off. Or has it been written already if in a confusing manner by Homer?

Check the youtube vids of Byron Nelson very similar to Rory.
Both with tremendous bent right wrists at impact.

Somebody said that Rory has learned to cut the ball. Perhaps that little hold on through impact is how he is doing it.

There is for sure. Homers aversion to these things was in regard to total compression. Check out the Pause Minor Basic Stroke for an application of intentional throwaway or intentional "swinging the clubhead". The photo displays Horizontal but imagine what it would look like for Vertical? You'd get the tour flop with the breaking left wrist.

Basically you can undo everything for an intentional loss of compression. A masters level of execution. And something Lynn does by the hour around his practice bunker. He scoots the clubhead under the ball and past the hands , with a flat left wrist or without and hits these little shots that go high and travel a short distance. Over and over. A shot Bobby Jones described as "cutting the legs out from underneath the ball". First you learn the flat left wrist , then you can break it if its really necessary. Of course you can flop it with a flat left wrist too, just saying everything is in play as a tool, or machine adjustment. Everything could conceivably have a possible use. One hand on the club, broken left wrist etc.

Nothing is new really. Just better defined.

No doubt about it, I don't claim to have it all figured out.....its fun to get in there and study for yourself and figure out what you think and why. There are guys going from "under" to "over", holding then snapping, coming below elbows to down tsp planes, ......the same guy that is, from one swing to the next.

But Im not talking about sacrificing compression or being flipped.... Rory made certain swings where the face got shut sooner in release, was held onto, the face did next to nothing, and there was plenty of compression to go around.

I got off topic a bit , wasnt talking about Rory necessarily there.

There's some guys who say the pros dont hit "shots" anymore but I dont see that. I see what you're talking about, JT. Maybe its not like the old days of persimmon but its still there.


JT do you see a weakness in his game? To my casual eye he looks like he has the complete game ........ and he's so young! Better driver than Tiger. How's his short game when he isnt hitting every freaking green?

Whew, man I tell you what, its really really good. Was able to watch him when I was on the range in Charlotte and it is the real deal. If he keeps swinging like this we may never get an up close look at the short game!!!

I've just been amazed through the time I've had out there at the different swings one player makes in a given round to hit certain shots, and the different systems from player to player. Tons of "underplane" drives for high draws , tons of "down and left" or over for low shots and short clubs. Drastically different ball positions, heads positions, pivots, grips, amounts of shaft lean, plane angles and shapes, etc.

Mike Austin stuff?
 

"Shut Face" stuff was said by Bobby Jones to be the toughest competition he faced. Mike Austin guys, at least some of them, push the Left Arm straight back and "Under" and "in" so that the face is "Shut." Is this what we are looking at?

IC T

I guess Im referring more to roll or the roll prep........seems to shut early in anticipation of little to no roll through the strike, where the pivot motors through to finish.

Could it be Grip Rotation you see, say for a shorter iron played back of low point but with an Angled hold off?

Sure, maybe.... I don't know. Seeing it and defining it are two different things I guess. I think there are alot of things going on in a golf swing. Tons of variables, and unmachine-like human bodies. I like to pick out something and then go and compare tons of guys.....do they do it? More or less? How do they get away with not doing it?, etc...... the more I learn the more I realize I don't know much and that NOBODY has or had it all totally figured out

Maybe nobody will either.

Rory seems like the real deal. Man I love his balance. With him and a bunch of others, it'd seem that the next generation has arrived.

Thanks for sharing, JTillery.

Its nice to have others still interested in learning and questioning.

Enjoyed it OB

They said he changed some things after the Masters
 

Here's a Master's tape with a good close-up of the hands. He is not shut face in this video.

You can turn the analysis off, if you wish.

http://youtu.be/yk9K8S1Pugk

Nice comparison to Kaymer

http://youtu.be/nYwqSWrQt-k

IC T

Yeah, never with the driver. Terrible camera angle too. He's got to have open face and swing shallow and to the right to hit that big ole high draw with the driver. Short shot and low balls.
Thanks ICT,enjoyed it. Im gonna call it a night. :salut:

Sorry I'm late to the party.

I think you have great eyes Mr. Tillery, in part because you work with players at the highest level. I would not have seen what you did until you pointed it out. I would have thought horizontal all the way. All I know for sure is it's beautiful... :salut:

Kevin

Ah I don't know about that Kev, but thanks. It is fun to watch the best do what they do though....... they're swinging, hitting, under, over, steering, snapping, still heads, dipping swaying heads, using multiple ball positions, hinges and pivots. All in one round!!! Its easy for people to pull out one swing and try to build a method around it, but that same guy makes swings that you could try to build another method around. Theres a lot going on! Can't be a robot I guess, and most of them can make all sorts of different swings to hit different shots. They are expert machinists no doubt, some are just experts.

Kinda like when JWN felt he was a bit closed at the top hitting that one iron at the 17th at Pebble in 72, then compensated at the downswing and hit the pin.

Maybe these guys are pretty good.

I see Jack is giving a lot of advice to players concerning majors lately. Wonder if he is protecting his record a bit?

Lots of great stuff from both OB and JTillery in this thread. I think the ideas JTillery puts forth in this particular post are EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. I'll bet Mr. Blake and Mr. Kelley agree 100% ! Thanks for sharing!!!

Kevin