Right Arm...Fold and Lift or Just Fold ??????
 

Would like your thought on the action of the right forearm. Seems to me, if it folds and lift (or lifts and folds, whatever the order), you would have a "bigger gap to drop" in order to "get into the slot" or to get the rigft forearm back on plane.

Alternatively,

If you simply folded your right elbow (it would probably still move up, but not much at all), it would be more efficient in getting that right elbow back on plane. More of a Hogan type action.

Your thoughts please!

BTW, I have been a "lifter" for years and have always struggled to get that elbow back on plane.

The right elbow should move back and through on 'its' plane. Extensor action should be your goal, 'letting' the elbow bend is good, but trying to 'tuck' the elbow in, or holding against your side isn't (unless you are able to maintain your radius and center with a steep shoulder turn).

An image Yoda taught me re: the elbow position/right forearm was to imagine I was going to 'spear a fish' at the ball, or alternately, think of a right handed javelin throw through the ball (to your aiming point). The motion is basically the same, except you want to keep that right wrist bend. Keep that javelin 'in line' with your forearm, and your elbow will take care of itself.

Yes, and you can "move the right elbow back and through on "its" plane" by lifting on the BS and "dropping it back" on plane, OR simply letting it fold (and as I said, it would still move up, but not by much) and unfold (you can do this without tucking it or pinning it to your side).

You get a flatter plane with the ladder and I believe its "theoretically" more effecient since you dont have as big of a gap to cover to get it back on plane on the forward swing (Nicklaus had to REALLY drop the elbow to get it back on plane, Hogan did not).

I don't see a lot wrong with it, but i would imagine there would be less power from it. Maybe i'm wrong, but that would be the obvious answer.

Nice! These are fantastic images and will put your right on the Turn Shoulder Plane as well.

Visuals
 

I have practiced that very thing for a few years and it's a great visual. The only note of caution for a traditional swinger is remember to aim that javelin only. If you start thrusting you will get one of two results; A hit or a right arm swing.

Bagger

this is precisely what gets confusing...so much emphasis on right arm action, when one thinks its a left arm swing.

it can and does get cofusing and its making noodle go nuts!
thrusting right arm via all these spear the fish thoughts seem to go hand in hand...no?

Well, what is the Right arm Action? It is a tracing action by the forearm. And the Left arm because of extensor action is the rhythm of the pivot- as Lynn says- “just a noodle, a string.” Let the hands be the boss, it should have trained the pivot to allow the hands the chance to fiercely dump number 3 pressure point down onto the back inside of the ball.

It’s a machine greater then its parts.

The Two Choices
 

Powerdraw,

Forget Left Arm Swing.

Swingers should think Momentum Transfer (of the Body via the Pivot into the inert Left Arm).

Hitters: Right Arm Drive (against the 'equal and opposite reaction' of the Right Shoulder).

<<Hitters: Right Arm Drive (against the 'equal and opposite reaction' of the Right Shoulder).>>
_________________


Yoda~Please tell us more.

DRW

Yes, more on the right shoulder........
 

Same request as DOC..................realize this is swinger tab, but more on the action of the right shoulder in hitting...........

every now and then it takes off down on its own and lets just say I hit it a little fat..............

maybe a link to a previous thread in the hitters tab?

The Hitter's Right Shoulder
 

I have written extensively on this subject and recommend you search my archives. Meanwhile, click on www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=493 to get started. Here's an exerpt from my post in that thread:

"For both Hitters and Swingers, the Pivot Loads the #3 Lag Pressure Point during the Start Down. This insures that the Body will lead the Power Package into the Downstroke and offers assurance that it will continue to do so into the Finish.

For Hitters, the Loading is maintained on the Aft side of the Shaft. Since the Right Forearm supports this Loading Action, this procedure simultaneously Loads the Bent Right Arm. Led by the Hip Slide parallel to the chosen Delivery Line, the Downstroke Right Shoulder Turn takes up the initial Clubhead inertia -- the disinclination of the Sweet Spot to follow.

But...the Shoulder Turn is slow; it reaches its top speed very quickly; and its ability to continue the Downstroke Acceleration soon pales in comparison to that of the now Loaded Right Triceps. Accordingly, the Right Shoulder early in the Downstroke ceases to apply Thrust. Instead, its Action (actively doing work) becomes merely Motion (permitting, but not causing, other events to occur).

It thus becomes the Launching Pad -- the 'recoil' platform -- for the Driving Right Arm."

Get a mirror the kind you hang off the back of your closet door.
Set the mirror against a wall and rest a dowel within the mirror frame.
Set up in front of the mirror and set the dowel to the plane of your your right forearem (turned shoulder plane). Practice RFT with a club up and down the dowel plane in the mirror.

Re: The Hitter's Right Shoulder
 

Yoda~

Should there be any attention given to the feet and lower legs as a platform or base? Do they "give" and accept the downstroke acceleration or is there a "resistance?"

DRW

Opposing Forces
 

Hitting or Swinging, the Knees and Feet are your stabilizing Anchors to the Ground. The Legs exert a 90 degree ('normal') force on the ground. And vice versa.

To get an idea of how important the ground is, imagine stepping off the side of an unsecured rowboat onto a dock some distance away. If in the Golf Stroke the ground acted the same way as the boat, there would be big trouble!

Re: Opposing Forces
 

If you have not already provided it in the previous post, maybe we will in time have the opportunity to hear the dialogue in your "Right foream/hole'ies & Pole'ies" clip. The drill there as it is understood has been most helpful. If only it had come as a "free gift" with the book. For me and my level of understanding, I feel a difference between Hit and Swingin the "base" established with the feet. For now, I am not able to formulate a more specific question and will stay tuned in.

DRW

Supporting Body Power Versus Launching Pad
 

When Swinging, you will Feel your Knees and Feet supporting the Body's Rotation and its resultant gyroscopic Centrifugal Throw-out Action. When Hitting, you will Feel them supporting a stable Body that resists the straight-line, Muscular Drive-out Action of Right Arm Thrust.

Re: Supporting Body Power Versus Launching Pad
 

I hear "support" and "resist" and hopefully understand the difference. Thanks for your patience.

DRW

Larger Muscle group is trigger by the smaller muscle group. Think about the "spear the fish" action, we are thinking about the hands (in fact is the finger trigging the hand then the wrist). As long as we can feel the finger and the weight of the club, let the right hand index finger to bend our right wrist , allow it to work with the back swing lag and the momentum.
Lag is a sequence of motion, we are using the lag to create force and load our shaft. We have to feel the lag in order to work with the momentum and rythum; and where the fingers will give you the direct feedback sence of pressure.
As long as we are pulling our left arm with the extensor action (Conciouse motion) the right wrist bending would affect the total right elbow motion. Is all link together. As long as we are not stopping the pivot to function, the pivot will work along with balance and momentum. And the bend right elbow affect the left wrist cocking.

Feeling the lag and stress the shaft
Feeling the pressure and work with the rythum
Good rythum will built good momentum
And go along with the momentum and bend right wrist.
The reverse presure point (#3) will bend our wrist
After all, are all fingers feel

With lag pressure (Swinger)
The relay is from right to left
Bend right wrist control the take away (concious extensor) FW
Flat left wrist control the forward swing (swinger-Left Mid and fourth fingers feel)FW
Is more then just one circle turn, is two half circle to form the swing.
The pivot will work, once it trained, forget about it if you can
Left the finger to do the job, and the swing will just looks as good.

Visual create illusion....

Bend right elbow

Re: The Two Choices
 

Pivot in the inert left arm? Does that mean turn you body and chest into the left bicep on the down swing until force drives the arm off the chest?

Accelerating The Inert Left Arm And Club
 

Yes...the Primary Lever Assembly (Left Arm and Club) is accelerated by the Momentum Transfer of the turning Body (through the #4 Pressure Point -- where the Left Arm contacts the side of the chest). Specifically, it is accelerated by the unwinding of the coiled left side via the Right Shoulder Turn thrust.

'rag limp' arms can help you get that pivot power and throw out. You want 'just enough' structure - extensor action - such that the wedges stay 'set' (power package). Beyond that and you are introducing tension that slows down and/or kills momentum transfer. A true swinger can actually use quite a lot of 'limp arms', because CF will take care of straightening them for impact if the rhythm and aiming point are correct.

Structure, not tension. Crack the whip from the ground up.

The Thoughts of swinger
 

Pivot power may be the main source of energy for swinger. Say, the pivot is the engine, but what started it?
The ultimate senor in our body is our fingers and hands. Where driving a golf ball further, is related to the clubhead speed and sound mechanics. One of the option in swinging a golf club is, less move with the body (Better balance) and Maximum motion with the club head.
I am a Hands controlled pivot believer (obviously we have to train the pivot motion too), where swinging our fingers and wrist (on a fix centre) would be the best way in swinging the golf club with maximum speed, I always think of the pivot is in the hands rather then the pivot itself.
Could we call that momentum transfer too? Using the fingers and hands plus the weight of the club head to trigger the pivot to function, then the larger muscle group transfer back the energy back to our hands, shaft and the clubhead.
Again in golf, what we think we are doing might not be what we are doing. Could that be two half circle (Eillipse) forming one Eillipse.
Left wrist as the pivot for the upswing to generate momentum to move our pivot clockwise. And using the left hand to relay from the top and think about the SLA as the pivot and trigger the body pivot to move, then transfer the momentum back to the PLA..
If we are intend to start our main muscle to start the swing (Pivot controlled hands) It will create a lot of unnecessary body motion and easily losing balance. Again is dependent on the option that you are chossing.

K so.....fold and lift? or just fold?

???

Put your focus on what the club does, what your hands do. If you are 'thinking' about lift OR fold, you have lost your focus, which for a swinger must be the entire MOTION, not a particular part of it.

The entire club must swing. Do not get in the way of that swing.

Smooth, heavy motion, the swinging force in your hands.

Good post EdZ...ur prolly right too man.