There is no question that the Pivot plays a vital role in the Lag Loading during the Start Down. Indeed, the Pivot accomplishes that Loading with no independent motion of the Arms and Hands (6-K-0). It is this sequencing that induces the Pull sensation of Drag Loading. Per 10-19-C (capitalization by Homer Kelley):
"Drag Loading is...an out-and-out PULL, striving to accelerate the Clubshaft lengthwise..."
Correct me if I'm wrong but I always thought that TGM advocated a Hand Controlled Pivot. Starting the downswing with the Pivot per 6-K-0 tends to throw the shoulders at the ball, and that 6-L-0 was far better as the shoulders are undisturbed by this initial move from the End. Drag Loading can still be accomplished with solely the hands and arms, and once complete, the Pivot "kicks in" to maintain balance through the remainder of the swing. That's the way I've been swinging -- and with good results may I add.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I always thought that TGM advocated a Hand Controlled Pivot. Starting the downswing with the Pivot per 6-K-0 tends to throw the shoulders at the ball, and that 6-L-0 was far better as the shoulders are undisturbed by this initial move from the End. Drag Loading can still be accomplished with solely the hands and arms, and once complete, the Pivot "kicks in" to maintain balance through the remainder of the swing. That's the way I've been swinging -- and with good results may I add.
Hands controlled pivot does not mean hands powered pivot. In the swingers procedure, you create a pressure at pp4 against the primary lever assembly to drive it through impact - pp3 aims at the aiming point - to be able to do this you must have the right shoulder go downplane.
PP4 - pivot pressure driving against the primary lever assembly
PP3 - passively directs the lag pressure
Correct me if I'm wrong but I always thought that TGM advocated a Hand Controlled Pivot. Starting the downswing with the Pivot per 6-K-0 tends to throw the shoulders at the ball, and that 6-L-0 was far better as the shoulders are undisturbed by this initial move from the End. Drag Loading can still be accomplished with solely the hands and arms, and once complete, the Pivot "kicks in" to maintain balance through the remainder of the swing.
Originally Posted by Mathew
Hands controlled pivot does not mean hands powered pivot. In the swingers procedure, you create a pressure at pp4 against the primary lever assembly to drive it through impact - pp3 aims at the aiming point - to be able to do this you must have the right shoulder go downplane.
Mathew is right on here. The Swinging Stroke is all about the transfer of Body Momentum into the Left Arm and Club. If the Hands initiate the Downstroke Sequence, then you bypass the 'massive rotor' and forfeit its Momentum. Once left behind, the Body can never catch up.
Hands controlled pivot does not mean hands powered pivot.
I didn't say that it did. In the backswing the pivot reacts to the hands and arms. It does not lead them.
10-19-C DRAG LOADING Drag Loading is the Rope Handle Technique of the "Swinger", an out-and-out PULL, striving to accelerate the Clubshaft lengthwise, from a quick Start Down to Release.
IMO you can get no quicker "quick Start Down" with just the hands and arms, unencumbered by the Pivot.
Originally Posted by Mathew
In the swingers procedure, you create a pressure at pp4 against the primary lever assembly to drive it through impact
Isn't that more of a Hitter's technique? The last thing I want to do is to have my shoulders rotating past square to the target line prior to impact.
Originally Posted by Mathew
pp3 aims at the aiming point - to be able to do this you must have the right shoulder go downplane.
I primarily use pp3 to sense the change of direction at the End, and attempt to maintain that feeling through Drag Loading to Release.
I didn't say that it did. In the backswing the pivot reacts to the hands and arms. It does not lead them.
10-19-C DRAG LOADING Drag Loading is the Rope Handle Technique of the "Swinger", an out-and-out PULL, striving to accelerate the Clubshaft lengthwise, from a quick Start Down to Release.
IMO you can get no quicker "quick Start Down" with just the hands and arms, unencumbered by the Pivot.
The primary lever assembly is driven by creating pressure against it... Theres only two places you can create pressure against the left arm - pp4 and pp1.... When the pressure is created at PP4 the flail (2-K) acts like a rope handle....
Quote:
Isn't that more of a Hitter's technique? The last thing I want to do is to have my shoulders rotating past square to the target line prior to impact.
10-19-C DRAG LOADING Drag Loading is the Rope Handle Technique of the "Swinger", an out-and-out PULL, striving to accelerate the Clubshaft lengthwise, from a quick Start Down to Release.
IMO you can get no quicker "quick Start Down" with just the hands and arms, unencumbered by the Pivot.
The "quick Start Down" of the Swinger is "Instant Acceleration" Hip Action, not Instant Acceleration Hand Action. This Hip Action is dictated by the desired Hand Speed.
It is exactly the same sequence used when throwing a ball...the body leads and the arm and hand follows.
The "quick Start Down" of the Swinger is "Instant Acceleration Hip Action," not Instant Acceleration Hand Action. This Hip Action is dictated by the desired Hand Speed.
It is exactly the same sequence used when throwing a ball...the body leads and the arm and hand follows.
Bossman . . . This is not in the scope of this thread . . . but at the risk of jacking it. . . .could you provide us with a lil' bit about the Swinger's preferred Hip Action? And possibly relate it to the loading of PP4?
Thank you for the answer mike. To be frank , i'm not sure I am really doing it correctly. Tried to take a video but for some funny reason, the recording turns out quite bad no image at all.. And I am a natorious flipper and still find meddling with the changes to achieve more consistent results
I have a very steep backswing/through swing in this picture, Not enough tilt, and using the arm plane ...
The changes I tryin to achieve this months.
1. Head stays behind,
2. More tilt , right shoulder above right hips.
3. Stay with the elbow plane as long as possible.
4. Stable hips , balance, ( very hard for me)
5. Stop flipping and have alot more clubhead control. instead of a freewheel Flip ...
6. Slightly more bendover.
7. A more Core generated swing which is 50% more quiet.
8. More lag.
Had found the Ben Doyle videos 1 2 3 , Yoda Flying Wedge 4ls hinges delivery path etc and the most important piece , finish swivel(this is amazing).
I am slowly digesting the content of the forum.. Just very curious.. what is 12 - c - x whatever means? ... in these forums?
Any suggestion to improve is greatly appreciated. like what to read etc.. In a entry point to tgm.
Just saw the video. Another one with an iron shot would be nice. I couldn't stop your video and do a frame by frame - can someone tell me how to do that or if maybe the software/site your using doesn't allow it?
Did notice that after impact with the clubshaft parallel to the ground you're in a bad location- the sign of hitting up or holding the clubface square to the target- maybe both. Would be great to see a full 6 iron and then maybe a chip shot with a Pitching Wedge.
The "quick Start Down" of the Swinger is "Instant Acceleration Hip Action," not Instant Acceleration Hand Action. This Hip Action is dictated by the desired Hand Speed.
Not according to the book..
6-H-0 IMPERATIVES
..
F. 9. Quick Start Down (10-23-C)
10-23-C TOP ARC AND STRAIGHT LINE This pattern takes the Hands beyond the Top-of-the-Line point, up and back along an Arc that is retraced when the Hands return to the Top-of-the-Line point. This "retracing" is ideal for longitudinal acceleration with (10-19-C).
I see no mention of hips.
Originally Posted by Yoda
It is exactly the same sequence used when throwing a ball...the body leads and the arm and hand follows.
I gave a simplified description and chose not to mention the weight transfer as ideally the weight transfer occurs as the backswing ends and should be over before drag loading occurs (IMO).
6-H-0 IMPERATIVES
..
F. 9. Quick Start Down (10-23-C)
10-23-C TOP ARC AND STRAIGHT LINE This pattern takes the Hands beyond the Top-of-the-Line point, up and back along an Arc that is retraced when the Hands return to the Top-of-the-Line point. This "retracing" is ideal for longitudinal acceleration with (10-19-C).
I see no mention of hips.
You have referenced 6-H-0, the stated "curriculum" for Educated Hands (Hitting and Swinging). By definition, there are no Pivot Components listed. In fact, in earlier editions of TGM, 6-H-0 was specifically described as "Hand Action Imperatives" instead of the Educated Hands "curriculum" approach later adopted. Those early editions (through the third) gave three Hand Imperatives (not to be confused with the Three Imperatives later designated in 2-0). Those three Hand Imperatives were listed as three "Avoids": Slowing the Hands (Quitting); Swinging from the wrist; and unintentional change in Lag Pressure. When the curriculum was expanded in the fourth edition, the three 'Avoids' became Items A, D and B respectively, and a new 'Follow-Through was added as 'C'. Also, the curriculum now differentiated between Hitting and Swinging (originally six items and later, in the fifth edition, ten) as dictated by the selected Lag Loading procedure.
In Pivot Strokes, the Re-Tracing Hands of 10-23-C are powered by the Pivot. This is the Centrifugal Downstroke Sequence of 6-M-1; the Pivot Stroke Delivery of 6-K-0; and the Body Power of 2-M-4. There can be no Re-Tracing in the Downstroke until the Left Arm moves, and the Left Arm -- #4 Accumulator Radius Power -- is driven by Right Shoulder Turn Thrust (6-B-4-A).
The Start Down is the period of Shoulder Acceleration (8-7) as led by the Hips (7-15) and their "Instant" Acceleration (10-19-C). The Downstroke is the period of Hand Acceleration (8-8 ).
Originally Posted by Weightshift
I gave a simplified description and chose not to mention the weight transfer as ideally the weight transfer occurs as the backswing ends and should be over before drag loading occurs (IMO).
The Weight Shift is the Hip Turn (7-14). Specifically, its Slide Component.
-- and with good results may I add.
Linear Mode
