So to clarify then, Jen's plane is simply a plane that is 90 degrees (verticle) to the plane of the left wrist cock, through (around) the left arm as the 'hinge pin'.
Which then provides a reference point for the amount of rotation of the left arm flying wedge as it 'turns and rolls' relative to 'the' plane.
Yes, almost. If you remember the discussion about parallel lines representing the plane edge of Jen's plane as it intersects the plane of the left wrist hinge pin, because they always remain in the same plane, and by using geometry/trig, you can calculate the actual angle of the wrist cock in its actual plane. Jen's plane will always represent the degree of roll of the left forearm. It's intersection (actually the change in position wrt the #3acc plane) with the #3acc plane will represent the degree of wrist cock/release. This will be slightly different than a measure of the shaft angle to the left wrist because the left wrist hinge pin moves slightly below plane as you approach impact. The diffrence will be small, but a difference nonetheless.
Due to the fact that the right forearm can only move straight up and down from its elbow location this means that at any point the entire right arm is always in a plane....
In this plane the closer the right hand goes to the right shoulder - the greater the angle between the upper arm and the forearm. This always creates a triangle shape between the right shoulder to hand - right shoulder to elbow - elbow to hand, except when it is inline. It is actually the right shoulder to hand line that is the third line on the law of the triangle per chapter 6.
PS - Im looking for this to be a active discussion. If you have any input to give or feel you want to add something - please discuss
My first thought was so what are you going to call THIS plane? Seriously, though, this looks to be another "reference plane" that will allow calculation of another angle precisely. Perhaps the right wristcock angle measured by changing positions of the lines of intersection of this plane relative to the plane of the right wrist pivot point, which at the top will/should be vertical to this plane. Close???
Due to the fact that the right forearm can only move straight up and down from its elbow location this means that at any point the entire right arm is always in a plane....
In this plane the closer the right hand goes to the right shoulder - the greater the angle between the upper arm and the forearm. This always creates a triangle shape between the right shoulder to hand - right shoulder to elbow - elbow to hand, except when it is inline. It is actually the right shoulder to hand line that is the third line on the law of the triangle per chapter 6.
PS - Im looking for this to be a active discussion. If you have any input to give or feel you want to add something - please discuss
Just a small trivial thing- but to keep everything crystal clear- the more the hand is closer to the right shoulder- the "larger the angle" is what you said. So for me that's looking at it from the "other side", "the underside"- because I first think of "THE ANGLE" as the angle that is between the hand and the shoulder- and that angle gets smaller as the hand approaches the shoulder. So you are talking about the angle getting greater because you are looking at it as if there is a circle that passes through the shoulder and the hand- and as the hand and shoulder are moving closer together- while the angle between the two get smaller the other "angle" of the 360 degree circle gets larger.
Have I got it?
Also, Matthew - some very interesting stuff- but I've got to understand it before I give it the rave reviews that it might deserve. I'll get there just need some time.
Thanks,
Mike
P.S. I didn't pay attention to your second drawing- which clearly shows how the context in which you are referring to a larger angle when the right hand is closer to the right shoulder. You are taking the angle from the right shoulder as I was looking at it from the right elbow. Maybe your description of the "greater angle between the upper arm and forearm" could be improved.
Just a small trivial thing- but to keep everything crystal clear- the more the hand is closer to the right shoulder- the "larger the angle" is what you said. So for me that's looking at it from the "other side", "the underside"- because I first think of "THE ANGLE" as the angle that is between the hand and the shoulder- and that angle gets smaller as the hand approaches the shoulder. So you are talking about the angle getting greater because you are looking at it as if there is a circle that passes through the shoulder and the hand- and as the hand and shoulder are moving closer together- while the angle between the two get smaller the other "angle" of the 360 degree circle gets larger.
Have I got it?
Also, Matthew - some very interesting stuff- but I've got to understand it before I give it the rave reviews that it might deserve. I'll get there just need some time.
Thanks,
Mike
P.S. I didn't pay attention to your second drawing- which clearly shows how the context in which you are referring to a larger angle when the right hand is closer to the right shoulder. You are taking the angle from the right shoulder as I was looking at it from the right elbow. Maybe your description of the "greater angle between the upper arm and forearm" could be improved.
Actually, Mathew may have mispoken, so to speak... "the greater the angle between the upper arm and the forearm". This angle obviously gets smaller as the hand approaches the right shoulder in the referenced plane. The angle from the RS ro the RH increases in the same plane.
G2M
Last edited by golf2much : 09-07-2006 at 08:31 PM.
Actually, I did make a mistake on the angle increasing. Mike O your quite correct - I did mean that it gets smaller on the V made by the upper arm and the lower arm...
Anyways...lol
Now since the right forearm is directly onplane at impact we can now know why you can't zero shift the turned shoulder plane and have the right shoulder onplane at impact and the right forearm also on that same plane. The only way that this can happen is a)the right arm is fully straightened or b)the plane of the elbow bend is the same as the inclined plane (push basic stroke) - not really good options...
So lets look at how you can get the right forearm directly on the inclined plane at impact.
The straight line of the triangle that goes between the right shoulder to the hands always stays on the inclined plane and the angle that the right elbow plane goes through the inclined plane being a factor on the right forearm position (vertical furthest away). As an approximation the length of the right forearm and the right upper arm is about the same - so relative to the plane of the right elbow bend plane - the angle on the right upper arm to the forearm will be double the degrees that of the angle of the shoulder to hands to the elbow. The only precise way would be to measure accurately and use simple trignometry.
Actually, I did make a mistake on the angle increasing. Mike O your quite correct - I did mean that it gets smaller on the V made by the upper arm and the lower arm...
Anyways...lol
Now since the right forearm is directly onplane at impact we can now know why you can't zero shift the turned shoulder plane and have the right shoulder onplane at impact and the right forearm also on that same plane. The only way that this can happen is a)the right arm is fully straightened or b)the plane of the elbow bend is the same as the inclined plane (push basic stroke) - not really good options...
So lets look at how you can get the right forearm directly on the inclined plane at impact.
The straight line of the triangle that goes between the right shoulder to the hands always stays on the inclined plane and the angle that the right elbow plane goes through the inclined plane being a factor on the right forearm position (vertical furthest away). As an approximation the length of the right forearm and the right upper arm is about the same - so relative to the plane of the right elbow bend plane - the angle on the right upper arm to the forearm will be double the degrees that of the angle of the shoulder to hands to the elbow. The only precise way would be to measure accurately and use simple trignometry.
Inclined plane yes, sweet spot plane maybe not; Wouldn't the RFA reside on a plane nearly parallel to and slightly below the true sweetspot plane if at impact your wrists are only level? Given that the sweetspot of the club is not inline with the shaft, wouldn't this have to be the case? For the RFA to be on the SS Plane, your wrists would hae to be slightly uncocked at impact, right? I realize that in reality, the difference would be negligible, but but isn't it there all the same?
Inclined plane yes, sweet spot plane maybe not; Wouldn't the RFA reside on a plane nearly parallel to and slightly below the true sweetspot plane if at impact your wrists are only level? Given that the sweetspot of the club is not inline with the shaft, wouldn't this have to be the case? For the RFA to be on the SS Plane, your wrists would hae to be slightly uncocked at impact, right? I realize that in reality, the difference would be negligible, but but isn't it there all the same?
G2M
The right wrist always stays level regardless of the left wrist cocking motion - the right forearm is on the inclined plane - which includes the sweetspot at impact for, lets just say a very short time, as the right forearm has a 'cross-line motion' as it straightens. This is due to the right shoulder being above the inclined plane used for release.
The right wrist always stays level regardless of the left wrist cocking motion - the right forearm is on the inclined plane - which includes the sweetspot at impact for, lets just say a very short time, as the right forearm has a 'cross-line motion' as it straightens. This is due to the right shoulder being above the inclined plane used for release.
The right forearm whilst always in the plane of the elbow bend, it can still rotate - hence it can turn and roll also.
The right hand has about 180 degrees range of movement - approx 90 degrees either side of the elbow bend plane. If the elbow bend plane is on the inclined plane, for the hand to be vertical to the inclined plane it must have 'turned' 90 degrees also. If the elbow bend plane is vertical to the inclined plane, for the hand to be vertical to the inclined plane it must be in a neutral 0 degrees to either side - hence inline with the elbow bend plane. This these two alignments degrees match precisely.
Now unless the wrist is flat - when the forearm turns and rolls - with a fixed degree of bend (an alignment im still trying to form an opinion on either way), moves the club around in a sphere in a cone-line manner. This is dependant on the right forearm angle of approach into the ball. If the fixed degree of bend is true then the rotational movement of the right arm has to conform to this conical shape turning and rolling on the inclined plane....
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