"The Secret"

[lagster]

Several things have to work properly to get the SECRET to work. Tom Tomasello taught, along with probably many other AI's... to "never speed up your hands through the ball. Get it down there, either by a Right Forearm motion, or by the Pivot, and let the ENDLESS BELT do it's work. Do not add hand flipping to the mechanism.

[nuke99]

For the True Swinger, Centrifugal Force automatically and exclusively produces Horizontal Hinge Action. That is why ball location is so critical to produce the desired direction.

This is my thought too.. 2 different and both effective pattern.

Look at Greg Machatton , Bobby Schaeffer, Billy Mckinney swing. 100% CF throwout. 100% horizontal motion.

Vs. Yoda's swing, Jeff Hull , the right forearm, "Accumulator 1" still gives the POW ! Different... Yoda's way is more Hogan's way, this way controls the Hinge better. 4 barrel swing, and so its possible.

So, the tendencies is not truly accurate and its possible to have angled hinging swingers..

Am i getting somewhere?

[12 piece bucket]

This is my thought too.. 2 different and both effective pattern.

Look at Greg Machatton , Bobby Schaeffer, Billy Mckinney swing. 100% CF throwout. 100% horizontal motion.

Vs. Yoda's swing, Jeff Hull , the right forearm, "Accumulator 1" still gives the POW ! Different... Yoda's way is more Hogan's way, this way controls the Hinge better. 4 barrel swing, and so its possible.

So, the tendencies is not truly accurate and its possible to have angled hinging swingers..

Am i getting somewhere?

I promise you Jeffy and Lynnard ain't usin' no 4-barrel swing . . . You may see Lynnard rock 4 barrels on a hit . . . but not no swing. fahgitaboutdit.

[nuke99]

yeah bucket.. Its actually extensor action, and you can call it 3 barrel.thus it is "". or "4 barrel". but...the way Yoda golfgnome use its different from the way Greg use it...

Gregg group of model use total CF throwout. really soft wrists. No matter what.. horizontal hinge. It reacts to the CF, CP totally, and the wrists roll with the throwout. The most relaxed way. and letting the club work

Lynn's, TT, Golfgnome,Hogan,BG way is more structured, The finish is more "held on" and maybe you can called it controlled, this method have superior control of the hinges. Still depends on throwout but a lot more active thrust, provided by the right elbow... You could call this Hitting with a Pitch elbow.. Doesn't react to a CF or gravity.. but more active on thrust. This model can use a shorter 3/4 swing.

So,, its whuteverucallit ... Puhhhh....Hitting , Swinging.. -_-a....A term is just a term... Really doesn't matter eventually in the application.

Would love to hear Yoda on this point. Am I getting closer?

[12 piece bucket]

yeah bucket.. Its actually extensor action, and you can call it 3 barrel.thus it is "". or "4 barrel". but...the way Yoda golfgnome use its different from the way Greg use it...

Gregg group of model use total CF throwout. really soft wrists. No matter what.. horizontal hinge. It reacts to the CF, CP totally, and the wrists roll with the throwout. The most relaxed way. and letting the club work

Lynn's, TT, Golfgnome,Hogan,BG way is more structured, The finish is more "held on" and maybe you can called it controlled, this method have superior control of the hinges. Still depends on throwout but a lot more active thrust, provided by the right elbow... You could call this Hitting with a Pitch elbow.. Doesn't react to a CF or gravity.. but more active on thrust. This model can use a shorter 3/4 swing.

So,, its whuteverucallit ... Puhhhh....Hitting , Swinging.. -_-a....A term is just a term... Really doesn't matter eventually in the application.

Would love to hear Yoda on this point. Am I getting closer?

Naw dude . . . you are way farther away. I think you are mistaking float loading for true cf swinging. I promise you there is no right arm participation in Jeffy or Lynnie's stroke . . . other than stretching the left arm. . . that's it.

Remember McHatton is more from the Doyle school of thought . . . Doyle strives for the Maximum Participation pattern in the 3rd Edition. An ACTIVE Right Arm.

It may look like Yodalishush and JH are doing that but they ain't. You are just seeing more structure and less float . . . that's it . . . right arm is moved but not active . . . it is a left wrist throw. You can call it hitting with a pitch elbow . . . but you'd be wrong.

Not trying to dawg you out or anything . . . but are off the reservation on this one.

[nuke99]

Yub.. I think I understand you Ol' Dawg.

it is , extensor action, but look at TT explanation, How Hogan wish he got 3 right hands. The Extensor action is not as Passive as we think. Drag is not simply DRAG. Just terms , and words I guess.

Ultimately, Motions and Feel is the most important, and its hard to describe Feel. How do you describe love? ..

[golfgnome]

I just got off the phone with bucket and felt compelled to give my side of the debate. I can't speak for Lynn, but we have had this discussion before. I have called Lynn and asked him if I am hitting or swinging because I do feel an active right arm. In fact I feel that when I am playing my best golf I use an angle of approach (alternate target line) procedure. I have a tendency to get above plane so I have to exagerate the "feel" of this line. Danny Elkins and Chris Asbell talk about driving the clubhead SS through 7:00 past 1:00 on a clock face, this is a great visual no matter who you are.

As I was talking to Bucket I told him that I also feel like I am pulling and pushing at the same time!! To explain this I will say that in martial arts to throw a right handed punch with max power the left side must pull out of the way. This is what I feel when I hit a good shot.

I would have to say that I am definately more swinging than hitting but I do feel and use my right arm, this is where I do feel my power from. However, my pivot is extremely important to allowing this participation to occur. The bottom line is that once you understand the Star System Triad I do not think that a player should necessarily concearn themselves with swinging or hitting, only what makes the ball go far and straight. If you have incompatible components then the ball will respond accordingly.

I am constantly working on basic and acquired motion drills with all 3 hinge actions because this is the only way I know how the ball will respond on the golf course. It also allows me to know the "why" some feels work and some don't.

I talked about the wrist throw in one of the videos I did with Lynn and How important it is for me to uncock first. Maybe it is beause of extensor action and maybe it is becasue of a driving right arm, all I know is that I try to uncock then roll in a sequenced release. Obviously more swinging than hitting.

My main point here is that only the player can determine what is best for them. As Homer says "the more rudimentary a player's skill, the less difference the "differences" make and the more difference the "sameness" make. The more precise a player's skill becomes the more this is reversed."

He also goes on to say in 1-J that a players seldom uses "precisely" the same stroke pattern more than once in a lifetime...and a "feel"system without an "engineering" system is a lopsided lottery, and a "feel" system is indespensible in such a complex action as we have in the Golf Stroke....Let mechanics produce and feel reproduce.

I hope this sheds some light on what I do. Remember this is not "The Way" theory, only "My Way" procedures as I feel them.

[nuke99]

Powergnome,

I feel compelled to call you that because man, your powerful !

And thank your for your explanation, good stuffs.

Its really tough to put swinging/Hitting into classifications and describe the exact feel. Bagger did PM me regarding, he thought he was hitting , Yoda & You mentioned that it look like a great swing. Well, too much opinion on this one to decide which one is right. But I am happy with your explanation, and there is no point trying to understand further.


Looking forward to hear more of your wins.

[Bagger Lance]

I would have to say that I am definately more swinging than hitting but I do feel and use my right arm, this is where I do feel my power from. However, my pivot is extremely important to allowing this participation to occur. The bottom line is that once you understand the Star System Triad I do not think that a player should necessarily concearn themselves with swinging or hitting, only what makes the ball go far and straight. If you have incompatible components then the ball will respond accordingly.

Jeff,

Thanks for coming out on this subject.

I remember the last time we met and I attempted to demonstrate my "hit" stroke to you and Lynn. You both replied that my hit "looked like" a very good swing and we talked about the very same thing as above.

Homer said that it is very difficult to visually tell the difference between hitting and swinging. In both cases it is a left arm stroke unless the right elbow becomes the center of the stroke. The right arm can either be passive or active. If it is active and driving by definition it's a hit. If it is passive and the pulling pivot is throwing the power package, then it's a swing.

In your case, you do a non-automatic release of #2 (uncock downplane), and have a smooth release continuation into the #3 overtaking roll. This provides maximum power for the #3 accumulator. I suggest that it is at that point where your right arm helps drive the #3 accumulator roll. If you didn't add structure with your right arm, you may find it difficult to roll that clubhead over through impact and while sustaining lag pressure and resisting impact deceleration. Is that simply "Extensor Action" in action?

I would like to suggest that extensor "action" helps contribute to the feeling of "pushing" for you. It would be interesting to see what happens when you nearly zero out #3 by putting the grip more towards the cup of your left hand. Would you feel a pushing sensation then or could you keep the right arm more passive and allow momentum transfer to square everything up?

I'm really enjoying the text in the 2nd Edition.
"6-C-2-A THE ESSENCE of Clubhead Lag technique is -DRIVING THE PRESTRESSED CLUBSHAFT THROUGH AND BEYOND IMPACT.
The Clubshaft is stressed by the weight of the Clubhead resisting a change in its direction or velocity - which is Acceleration. Acceleration is the result of Thrust and the Thrust of this action is supplied by the Clubhead Lag Pressure Point Pressure - about 50% #2 and/or #3 with about 50% #1 is the recommended balance. Plus firm Extensor Action. From Putter to Driver, the Clubhead Lag technique is indispensible."

I would suggest that during release when you swing and I "hit" that in reality we are swinging but during release in order to maintain lag pressure (i.e. keep the clubshaft bent) we are feeling signficant extensor action which is required to maintain MASS and prevent clubhead deceleration during impact. It is simply the right arm effort to always be straight, thereby keeping the power package from breaking down through release and impact.

It may feel like we are pushing but to be honest, I don't think you or I come anywhere near the true hitting (pushing) that Ted Fort can demonstrate.

[EdZ]

A sure test of being able to tell the difference - hit shots with the right arm only and then left arm only.

A swinger who can really use PP#4 well will tend to 'feel' a very strong straightening of the right arm through impact, and an accompanied strong support for impact (lag pressure). The left arm only swings will show just how well you are loading #4.

If you can't hit a right arm only shot well, you probably are not 'hitting' IMO. I like to practice with a wedge, my 110 club to about 80 yards, right hand only when working on a hit pattern.