You probably haven't been following the pivot center thread - in terms of my personal views. I don't believe in the idea of a pivot center or a pivot axis.
I simply believe that one needs a small degree of rightwards spinal tilt at address and an appropriate amount of seconday axis tilt at impact.
For short-mid irons, I like Yoda's approach where one places one head in the center at address and acquires a small degree of rightwards spinal tilt by shifting the pelvis slightly left-laterally. That should produce a small degree of positive O factor at address -which RB demonstrates in his video. Because one is hitting a short iron, one doesn't need much secondary axis tilt at impact. HK stated that one should place one's head in the position it will need to be in at impact. Because there will be little need for much secondary axis tilt when hitting a short iron, a centralised head position works very well and complies with HK's recommendation.
For a driver, I think that the head should be positioned back of the center of the stance - roughly midway between the center of the stance and the right foot - because one anticipates a much greater amount of secondary axis tilt at impact. One still shifts the pelvis left-laterally a small amount at address, and that produces a small amount of positive O factor. During the downswing, the degree of secondary axis tilt is going to increase because of a more significant amount of left-lateral pelvic shift onto a braced/straightening left leg. That left-lateral pelvic shift onto a straight left leg produces a definite positive O factor in a driver swing (more than is seen with a short iron where there is virtually no left-lateral pelvis shift in the downswing).
In that sense, I agree with RB re:head position. However, he makes a fetish of the degree of positive O factor and claims that a greater degree of positive O factor at impact will increase clubhead speed. I disagree. I think that the amount of secondary axis tilt required (amount of left-lateral pelvic shift required) depends on the golfer. Jamie Sadlowski and Tiger Woods and Mike Austin have a large amount of secondary axis tilt at impact. However, many other excellent golfers have a lesser amount, and still hit the ball a long way.
Out of interest - here is a series of images of Mike Austin.
Note that his head is well behind the center of his stance at the end-backswing position. Note the significant amount of secondary axis tilt he has at impact and note the significant amount of upwards tilt of the left pelvis at impact (large positive O factor).
Here is Jamie Sadlowski
Note his head position - behind the center of his stance. Note his significant amount of secondary axis tilt and his positive O factor.
Note that his head is well behind the center of his stance at the end-backswing position. Note the significant amount of secondary axis tilt he has at impact and note the significant amount of upwards tilt of the left pelvis at impact (large positive O factor).
Isn't it positively amazing how a talented athlete can compensate for a Ball Position too far aft to accomodate his geometric purpose (Upswing for launch angle / low spin)?
Note the Left Shoulder / Ball Position at Impact.
For those interested in the principle involved, reference 1-L #13 and #15, and study the related areas.
For all others . . .
Good luck.
You are mired forever in the nether world of Position Golf.
It is my impression that MA's ball position is behind the low point and that he is swinging down to the low point. His hands are ahead of the ball position at impact.
It is my impression that MA's ball position is behind the low point and that he is swinging down to the low point. His hands are ahead of the ball position at impact.
C'mon, Jeff. . .
Mr. Austin clearly is 'hitting up' in this sequence. That means -- by definition -- that the Club is ASCENDING from its lowest point in its orbit (opposite the Left Shoulder).
Since that dynamic is so obvious, I must assume that you mean the normal low point -- the left shoulder, as aligned inline by God and unadjusted by an abnormal backwards tilt -- in front of a normal Ball location. Otherwise, your observation makes no sense at all. Clearly, Mr. Austin's Left Shoulder is behind the Impact Ball Positon, thereby mandating his Upward Swing.
Given this abnormal, backwards-adjusted Low Point, Mr. Austin indeed is swinging Down Plane through Low Point -- but up through the Ball -- as required. And, as you correctly have observed, with the requisite "hands are ahead" Impact Alignments (2-J-1). Nevertheless, his 'adjusted' Geometry has produced an Upstroke Clubhead Path (1-L #15).
There's a problem here? Why do I feel like I'm talking to a learning R2D2?
"You probably haven't been following the pivot center thread - in terms of my personal views."
Its really hard to follow of your posts. I can hang in there for most. Especially when they illicit interesting comments from others which is your talent to my mind. No offence intended. I like your participation here. TGM needs it, indeed requires it, will thrive because of it.
Originally Posted by Jeff
"I don't believe in the idea of a pivot center or a pivot axis."
Have you ever broken 90?
Originally Posted by jeff
"I simply believe that one needs a small degree of rightwards spinal tilt at address and an appropriate amount of seconday axis tilt at impact."
"Small degree" ok , you qualify your past assertions. A comparatively large degree is a common procedure for long drive guys but not as frequent a procedure for most tournament players, unless they are trying to launch it higher than usual. Why not center up your head and then axis tilt with your hips, like Homer recommends? Any reason?
Originally Posted by jeff
"For short-mid irons, I like Yoda's approach where one places one head in the center at address and acquires a small degree of rightwards spinal tilt by shifting the pelvis slightly left-laterally. That should produce a small degree of positive O factor at address -which RB demonstrates in his video."
Ya I like it too. So did Hogan. Yoda by the way does this on most shots. On fuller shots he may not have pre set his hips as much but his head is CENTERED. I didnt hang in for the whole RB clip. I only saw RB creating a positive O factor with his hips by taking his head BACK at address. Which in itself is debatable , anyone can keep their hips level to the ground and move their head back.........zero "O Factor". This is a reverse form of Hula Hula flexibility im describing here. If you know what i mean.
Originally Posted by jeff
"Because one is hitting a short iron, one doesn't need much secondary axis tilt at impact. HK stated that one should place one's head in the position it will need to be in at impact. Because there will be little need for much secondary axis tilt when hitting a short iron, a centralised head position works very well and complies with HK's recommendation."
You seem to keep implying that secondary axis tilt assumes the head to move back of center. Re read Hula Hula. Not your thread but the book, and take into consideration "axis tilt" as defined in the glossary. I interpret it to mean that with a centered steady head, t he hips shift to tilt the shoulders, which promotes the on plane move of the right shoulder. This is the whole idea behind axis tilt, to keep the head AND LOW POINT in position while tilting the shoulders. If they go back then why do it in the first place? Why move low point around unless you have a very good reason and are skilled enough to pull it off and have ingrained it as a procedure.......long ballers for instance.
I could go on but .................if you dont believe in pivot axis then how do you play this game? How do you manage your low point, make constant clean contact? Or maybe you just debate its theory as sport?
You are in the company of experts here, myself not included. Why debate their observations gained over a life time of watching and learning from the games best? No amount of intellect could accurately suppose the feel of the #3 pressure point in the perfectly struck shot. Like accurately describing the taste of an orange in words. Impossible.
Learning by doing has its place in golf, albeit not the only place. But.
I think that 1-L #15 only applies after the low point. The low point is usually opposite the left shoulder, but when a golfer has as much secondary axis tilt as MA, then the low point may be ahead of his left shoulder. If his clubhead is still descending to its low point at impact, then 1-L #15 may not apply to MA's clubhead in that last photo. The clubhead may be just reaching its low point.
Out of interest - here is a series of images of Mike Austin.
Note that his head is well behind the center of his stance at the end-backswing position. Note the significant amount of secondary axis tilt he has at impact and note the significant amount of upwards tilt of the left pelvis at impact (large positive O factor).
Here is Jamie Sadlowski
Note his head position - behind the center of his stance. Note his significant amount of secondary axis tilt and his positive O factor.
Jeff.
OK Ill bite.
Here is what I think. You keep showing pictures of long drive guys and maintaining that their tilt should represent the norm for a tournament golfers drive technique. I disagree on behalf of anyone who has to hit a second shot. Keep yourself centered and balanced even for the driver*
* unless you have ingrained a compensated but still reliable technique. In the old days many a 9 degree persimmon driver required or even mandated a slight tilt, unbeknownst to the golfer but learned , ingrained over time by the experts.
I think that 1-L #15 only applies after the low point. The low point is usually opposite the left shoulder, but when a golfer has as much secondary axis tilt as MA, then the low point may be ahead of his left shoulder. If his clubhead is still descending to its low point at impact, then 1-L #15 may not apply to MA's clubhead in that last photo. The clubhead may be just reaching its low point.
That statement is really an ad hominem style comment, that doesn't make your argument about TGM issues more-or-less legitimate.
Stick to arguing for your viewpoint regarding TGM/biomechanical issues. You are entitled to your viewpoint, but you are not entitled to arbitrarily assume that your opinions are more "right" than mine.
You wrote-: "You seem to keep implying that secondary axis tilt assumes the head to move back of center."
There are two ways to acquire secondary axis tilt. Your way (and mine) is to keep the head central and shift the pelvis left-laterally, which then shifts the lower lumbar spine left-laterally thereby creating secondary axis tilt. However, there is only a finite amount of space between the center of the stance and the left foot, and the body with its desired degree of secondary axis tilt has to fit within that space. Tiger Woods and Mike Austin and Jamie Sadlowski apparently need a greater amount of secondary axis tilt, and there is no room between the center of their stance and the left foot to accomodate that desired degree of secondary axis tilt. They therefore choose to have the stationary head further back - behind the center of their stance.
I believe that adopting a large degree of secondary axis tilt may be advantageous for driving the ball a long distance, but I think that it is not optimum for accuracy/control. That's why most tour professionals keep much more centered, and adopt far less secondary axis tilt, when hitting their iron approach shots.
I am incapable of adopting large degrees of secondary axis tilt because I lack the spinal/torso flexibility, so I do not have the ability to make these personal choices.
Here is a nice video clip - presumably by VJ Trolio
He shows four variations of pelvic pivot action movements. He obviously favors the last one.
I think that many tour PGA golfers prefer the first one - the conventional pivot action where one loads over the right leg and where the head is positioned slightly behind the center of the stance. Hogan used that conventional pivot action for most of his career. Are you arguing that it's a totally unacceptable choice - from a personal, or TGM, perspective?
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