At the risk of hijacking my own thread. The “experiment “ I was working with on the days I “tweeked” my elbow was INCREASING EFFECTIVE MASS, 2-E, 2-M-1, 2-M-2, 2-M-3. ( adding #1 to an elbow that is in front and pitching) [ 4 barrel swing] . I want that wet mop feel and at the same time I do not want ANY deceleration, OF ANYTHING through impact I want acceleration of EVERYTHING THROUGH to follow through. Did you ever see Ted Williams or Mickey Mantle break the handle off their bat just by swing force not by hitting the ball? (for you hockey guys that would be BH or GH breaking their stick before they get to the puck on a slap shot) Well,I have, And, I want to break the shaft without contacting anything. I will argue, that as CF increases the radius the club try to “back up” the hands. If I just let it happen everything slows down in spite of the “heavy” (But not what it should be) feelings in the hands. I want it to have mass and maintain velocity. I like Drew’s exercise of learn to throw a club down range BUT I think there are 2 things to look for; 1. Throw in the correct direction and 2. Throw it club head first (Does the club do a helicopter down range or is it an arrow?) I think if this can be done you become “King of the world” So, why let #2 flop around and contribute nothing but motion?
I need to mention. I need to find MAX so I can adjust back to OK.
The Bear
Last edited by HungryBear : 03-13-2010 at 10:57 AM.
There is a tradeoff between clubhead speed and hand speed in the golf stroke. If I take what you say literally I read that you wish to reduce your clubhead speed to increase your hand speed.
If you go for a snap release it will have a slow down effect on the hands. This is a good thing because it means that a bigger portion of the energy you generate in your down stroke is allocated from your body parts to the club head. This slow down can be fought of course if you're able to keep upp the good work and not just freewheel through the ball.
Homer called it resistance against slowdown and that is probably as good as it gets without killing the clubhead speed.
Personally I want maximum (or very close to maximum) swing speed through the ball. And then I want to add all the thrust I am able to deliver. Successful thrusting possibly gives 10-20 yards extra but only when the swing speed is intact.
[quote=BerntR;71470]There is a tradeoff between clubhead speed and hand speed in the golf stroke. If I take what you say literally I read that you wish to reduce your clubhead speed to increase your hand speed.
If you go for a snap release it will have a slow down effect on the hands. This is a good thing because it means that a bigger portion of the energy you generate in your down stroke is allocated from your body parts to the club head. This slow down can be fought of course if you're able to keep upp the good work and not just freewheel through the ball.
Homer called it resistance against slowdown and that is probably as good as it gets without killing the clubhead speed.
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I think that may be correct under the conditions that energy within the system is constant . I think BOTH can be increased by adding energy to the system in the same manner as resistance against slowdown is added. Trivial example would be the putt. a. like a pendulum add no energy. b. add mass to resist impact deceration. or c. accelerate through the ball.
I do not understand. why are there tradeoffs? I am missing something. I remember the book talking hand speed vs pulley size and high hand vs. low hands and max hand speed but I always related that section to general mechanical advantage . Is there particular section where homer makes the points I need to understand? Thanks.
The Bear
Really? They could break their bats without hitting anything, including their backs? Thats interesting. Some serious forces in play there. As for the hockey players , ya for sure but for a slap shot you do hit the ice well before the puck and bend the crap out of the shaft in the process prior to impact. I sometimes think in those terms for golf especially for Hitting, bending the shaft against the turf but........for golf you do have to hit the ball before the ground, of course.
Re hand speed, Homer thought each of us had our own maximum speed and no amount of effort could increase it. However I think that more effort typically results in an earlier Release, less that ideal for maximum distance. So in this manner each of us has our own ideal Hand Speed. Which allows for maximum Trigger delay and therefor maximum Clubhead Speed.
So hammer it but remember its a Swingers Release Trigger which for maximum distance must still be Delayed. In a mechanical sense this is saving some lever extension for the ball. The boxer extends his right arm through his target but dances around prior , trying to sneak his right shoulder closer to his opponents head prior to actively extending. Same for golf, you dont want to make contact with the ball with the lever nearing fully extended and so we must get our Right Shoulder close to the ball prior to finally extending. There is also the degrees of rotation of the primary lever vis a vis time consideration for Snap Release, meaning added clubhead speed.
Id say a non automatic Release Trigger form of thrusting can be pretty dang forceful , violent almost, but the timing requirements , slow start down for instance are even more critical than normal. Especially for a Hitter (for whom its often easier to just shorten the backswing). The Swinger can load hard with his Pivot , Drag Loading, ground up 6-M-1 and just keep the left wrist turned to plane prior to Triggering and he's good. In fact if he doenst non auto a Left Wrist Throw he'll get an automatic version when the Hands reach the bottom of their Delivery Path , the small pulley wheel of the Endless Belt Automatic Snap Release. The Hitter really has to sneak that right shoulder down to the ball and then fire. It seems that way for me anyways. The On Plane #2 Angle Trigger, the Thrusting by itself is not Throwaway. Because the Thrusting, Throwing is done against the Pressure Points on the Top of the Shaft as opposed to the aft.
I don't think you will find the answer to your last question in the yellow book. You will find it in basic physics and mechanics. It is about conservation of energy. Energy is redistributed from your body to the clubhead during the release. Everything but the club will be slowed down by this redistribution. The moving mass of your body is where the energy comes from.
Unless you hold back prior to the release there's no chance that you will be able to thrust and pull hard enough to fully neutralize the slow down effect during the release interval. But keep trying, because the more effort you put in the more speed you will get out of the release. But if you make hand speed your top priority you may end up with a swing without a proper release.
If I go very slowly, I can drop my back shoulder on purpose or turn it to the target on purpose. I can also pretend to hold a baseball bat and just cut loose at the ball. Are you saying that while dropping/rotating the back shoulder, you also the fire the right arm on purpose?
I think I get that if I drive my back elbow to my front foot or slide my back hip forward launching everything else. or is that really a swing?
If I imagine an ax handle and plant to chop that tree down with pp 3 as my sharp edge am I doing a shoulder/arm combo to good effect or am I wasting energy?
I am hoping to emulate Yoda's motion on purpose, and make the world safe for democracy through the peace and serenity of contemplation of the dimples. "I see trees of green, red roses too... people shaking hands saying how do you do ?...and I think to myself what a wonderful world." L.Armstrong
These ideas help me dismiss the challenges of my day as I'm sure is the case for all of us.
Patrick
Originally Posted by O.B.Left
Really? They could break their bats without hitting anything, including their backs? Thats interesting. Some serious forces in play there. As for the hockey players , ya for sure but for a slap shot you do hit the ice well before the puck and bend the crap out of the shaft in the process prior to impact. I sometimes think in those terms for golf especially for Hitting, bending the shaft against the turf but........for golf you do have to hit the ball before the ground, of course.
Re hand speed, Homer thought each of us had our own maximum speed and no amount of effort could increase it. However I think that more effort typically results in an earlier Release, less that ideal for maximum distance. So in this manner each of us has our own ideal Hand Speed. Which allows for maximum Trigger delay and therefor maximum Clubhead Speed.
So hammer it but remember its a Swingers Release Trigger which for maximum distance must still be Delayed. In a mechanical sense this is saving some lever extension for the ball. The boxer extends his right arm through his target but dances around prior , trying to sneak his right shoulder closer to his opponents head prior to actively extending. Same for golf, you dont want to make contact with the ball with the lever nearing fully extended and so we must get our Right Shoulder close to the ball prior to finally extending. There is also the degrees of rotation of the primary lever vis a vis time consideration for Snap Release, meaning added clubhead speed.
Id say a non automatic Release Trigger form of thrusting can be pretty dang forceful , violent almost, but the timing requirements , slow start down for instance are even more critical than normal. Especially for a Hitter (for whom its often easier to just shorten the backswing). The Swinger can load hard with his Pivot , Drag Loading, ground up 6-M-1 and just keep the left wrist turned to plane prior to Triggering and he's good. In fact if he doenst non auto a Left Wrist Throw he'll get an automatic version when the Hands reach the bottom of their Delivery Path , the small pulley wheel of the Endless Belt Automatic Snap Release. The Hitter really has to sneak that right shoulder down to the ball and then fire. It seems that way for me anyways. The On Plane #2 Angle Trigger, the Thrusting by itself is not Throwaway. Because the Thrusting, Throwing is done against the Pressure Points on the Top of the Shaft as opposed to the aft.
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Last edited by innercityteacher : 03-18-2010 at 01:38 AM.
If I go very slowly, I can drop my back shoulder on purpose or turn it to the target on purpose. I can also pretend to hold a baseball bat and just cut loose at the ball. Are you saying that while dropping/rotating the back shoulder, you also the fire the right arm on purpose?
Well yes, but...while Release Triggers can be combined the two I think your talking about when grouped together can be problematic for a lot of golfers. Im assuming your talking about the Right ARm pushing on the aft of the shaft, pp#1.
That "firing" of the right arm (Right ARm Throw 10-20-B) while actively rotating the right shoulder (Shoulder Turn Throw 10-20-C) sounds like 4 Barrel Hitting. A complex business. Timing is difficult despite some potential added power. I goof with it, not sure if its for me or not, maybe, still trying to sort out the component changes required. And I havent seen any Remax long drives with it or anything either if your getting all excited about the power thing. I liken it to the time I put a four pack of interlinked fancy carburetors on my Volkswagen Kharmen Ghia. Yah the top end was a little faster but it never ran right at low speeds and required a ton of tweaking. Every time the weather changed I was under the hood adjusting things. I finally went back to the stock single Solex carburetor and got to where I wanted go smoothly.
If on the other hand your Right Shoulder has "motion" only, does not actively "work" or "action" ( Non Automatic Shoulder Turn Throw) you are probably 3 Barrel Hitting. Basically the Right Shoulder sort of stays back and provides the Right ARm something to extend against , off of, like a launching pad. Homer loved this method. Super simple. 12-1-0, Three Accumulator Hitting. In 6-H-O E Imperatives (what to teach your Hands in an effort to educate them) you'll see point 5 Active Right Elbow.
If the Right Arm is passive and extends on its own, with or without a Shoulder Turn Throw, you're Swinging , using CF, the turning power of the Pivot to create the Throw OUt of both arms. Homer liked this one too. 12-2-0. And its normally associated with a Left Wrist Throw per 6-H-O-F point 5 Active Left Wrist (auto or non auto Throw see 7-20)
So hitting is normally associated with an Active Right Elbow (always a non automatic Right ARm Throw) , Swinging with an Active Left Wrist (Auto or Non Auto Left Wrist Throw). Both see the Right Arm straighten..... its an Imperative all on its own, in fact. 6-H-O-C "Take all Strokes to Both Arms Straight". Basically , for me anyways , its the employment of one or other of these two Throws that distinguishes whether Im swinging or hitting. You have to know what Power Accumulators you're loading, the associated Pressure Point combinations, the type of Loading (Drag vs Drive) the appropriate Acceleration (radial, longitudinal) prior to employing a Non Auto Throw . Getting things mis matched is easy to do, so both Homer and Lynn highly recommend starting with 12-1 or 12-2 before customizing. In fact, Homer said he "sweated blood" over them, so dont take them too lightly. If you've purchased the 7th addition you should maybe check out the thread right here that outlines the changes made to the 6th. There is a little hanky panky going on with 12-1 and 2, no. 13 that needs to be straightened out maybe. In the 6th it read "standard shoulder turn" which I prefer.
If you want to look like Lynn, there's a long line forming so you better hurry .......and do check out 12-1 , 12-2 and 12-5 while your waiting. Thats how he did it.
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