For me, shaft flex has a lot to do with how well the club responds. I like to push hard on the shaft right before and into impact. With the right shaft I get added distance. If the shaft is to weak I don't get the reght kind of resistance to the thrusting. If it's too stiff I really have to add some extra with timing. But when it's just right.
I actually believe that the wrong flex will mess with the rhythm if you have some drive loading in there.
I played 9 holes / 2 balls with a set of vintage blades on Sunday. 8th tee - 3 iron. They would be ideal for practice if the shafts were stiffer, but they are regular: First ball a strong draw - almost a hook. Good distance. Second ball: Feels perfect - sweet spot - high draw - straight down the line - and 30 yards shorter.
Reminds me of when I used to play weaker iron shafts than today. I never quite figured out how to hit the ball to get the right distance. I had to deliberately max the thrust some distance before impact to get a good result. But I couldn't feel the difference between a good shot and one that flopped.
These things never happen to me when I play with stiffer shafts.
With stiffer shafts I get a much more predictable result and distance control. Higher COG possibly makes a difference too.
BTW, I can't stand the big offset in the game improvement clubs. It messes with my aiming.
Both of you have given me some important insights. If I may pick at some of the new insights...
1) "Pushing hard on a shaft..." This mystifies me. How can you push hard on a shaft without throwing out the clubhead, unless... you are extending the elbow and pushing both # 1 PP and # 2 PP simultaneously. Does the stiffer shaft keep less flex and more uniformity in the lever and club, like pushing a board?
1.5) Do you monitor your lever at all? What I'm sensing as the feeling # 3 PP grows in my hands, and with OB and Daryl's input, is that the ideal is not to notice anything but your hands. Once LAG is "caught," both hands are thrust or swung as quickly as possible ahead of the clubhead. I have done this and it almost impossible to monitor. Both arms are thrust at the ball, period. What's not logical is the explosive force of the hit when that happens. It always surprises me. And you're saying that a stiffer shaft amplifies the strike?
2) I understand why the offset would be upsetting, Bernt. My driver is not offset. When I thrust with that club and senior shaft the ball never wants to come down (Adams old 9.5 Redline).
3) Ed, what constitutes a good club fitter? Is there a website/several, well known standards? With a shorter front leg, perhaps a shorter club length...we'll see!
Thanks, men!
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Until the objective of the swing is to strike the ball on the perimeter of the clubhead I'll stay with muscle-back designs. Last I heard we were still supposed to hit the sweetspot.
Until the objective of the swing is to strike the ball on the perimeter of the clubhead I'll stay with muscle-back designs. Last I heard we were still supposed to hit the sweetspot.
CG
Ok, no-offset, musclebacks. I'll hit a few clones and any other recommendations?
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
The cb vs mb argument has probably been hashed out here before. My input is that you've probably gotten a sneak peek at just how good the mb's can perform based on your brief experience with the Apex. Too many people have been duped into thinking all they can hit are big cb designs. I contend they never give mb's a real chance. One or 2 miss-hits and they scramble back to the frying pans. They usually start that experiment with a pre-conceived notion anyways.
Don't think you can't hit the sweetspot or get real close to it. It's just hard to know if you are or aren't with most of the game-improvement stuff they make. Feedback is what allows you to get better at hitting the sweetspot.
Excellent quality (but older) mb designs are all over ebay for a song.
1) I push mostly on pp#1 initially. There will be more pp#3 towards the ball of course.
But remember we're talking about educated hands here, they know where they need to go and how to get there.
Then there's a "catch me if you can" game between the driveloading and the pivot. A game that the driveloading should never win in my stroke pattern. It catches up with some of the pivot lag but it never overtakes the pivot lag pressure. The lag pressure from the rope handling is maxed at impact.
1.5) Monitoring:
Impact is in the spotligth of my monitoring system. It's in the middle of my mind all the time. The further away from the ball, the more blurred the monitoring is. In two ways. More focus on the impact zone than the transition and follow thru, and more focus on the club than the hands. And more focus on the hands than other body parts. The hands are possible the most important monitoring device.
This is certainly an area of shades of gray and semantic traps. It is very easy to get reductionistic when discussing this topic, too easy to paint the dark grey parts black and omit the lighter gray parts altogether. The brain works in hierarcic ways. I believe you can basically monitor everything that conserns your golf stroke in real time. Further I believe that good players have greater awareness (monitoring skills + intuitive understanding) of what happens in their stroke than the rest of us.
2) Distance hasn't anything to do with my issue with offset. The offset carries an illusion of a closed clubface that is really disturbing to me when I stand over the ball. I see the shot better with a clean leading edge.
The offset also carries a small amount of added loft but that part is insignificant to me.
1) I push mostly on pp#1 initially. There will be more pp#3 towards the ball of course.
But remember we're talking about educated hands here, they know where they need to go and how to get there.
Then there's a "catch me if you can" game between the driveloading and the pivot. A game that the driveloading should never win in my stroke pattern. It catches up with some of the pivot lag but it never overtakes the pivot lag pressure. The lag pressure from the rope handling is maxed at impact.
1.5) Monitoring:
Impact is in the spotligth of my monitoring system. It's in the middle of my mind all the time. The further away from the ball, the more blurred the monitoring is. In two ways. More focus on the impact zone than the transition and follow thru, and more focus on the club than the hands. And more focus on the hands than other body parts. The hands are possible the most important monitoring device.
This is certainly an area of shades of gray and semantic traps. It is very easy to get reductionistic when discussing this topic, too easy to paint the dark grey parts black and omit the lighter gray parts altogether. The brain works in hierarcic ways. I believe you can basically monitor everything that conserns your golf stroke in real time. Further I believe that good players have greater awareness (monitoring skills + intuitive understanding) of what happens in their stroke than the rest of us.
2) Distance hasn't anything to do with my issue with offset. The offset carries an illusion of a closed clubface that is really disturbing to me when I stand over the ball. I see the shot better with a clean leading edge.
The offset also carries a small amount of added loft but that part is insignificant to me.
Semantic traps indeed! Some people live for them which means they never quite got over the sound of their own confusion!
One of the many nice things to say about LBG and TGM generally. There is something to say and discuss and so we use specific terms to "grab" an important issue and hope our candles and Lynn's 10 million watt floodlight do the trick.
I'm thinking you have a large floodlight of your own as do many others here. I'm feeling like a package of birthday candles, myself, but it's a start! Whoopee!
So then, I glide along with the Pivot, sipping my Gin and Tonic, slowly, due to my Gout, and as I approach the ball I drive # 1 PP through China and that's it!
It was late last night and I was reading OB, somewhere, and he was mentioning driving the right shoulder. I would love to RFT/EA /Hula and drive my right shoulder DOWN and OUT (which TGM has turned into a positive). We are talking about the same thing, correct, as hitters, but not as Swingers?
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
I regard myself as a swinger with driveloading added. Most of the time I rotate pp#3 at the top. A switter? No-no-no. Usually I swing through impact so I guess you can call me a hinger
Bernt, I swung the Titleist Z's muscle backs, today.
Originally Posted by BerntR
I regard myself as a swinger with driveloading added. Most of the time I rotate pp#3 at the top. A switter? No-no-no. Usually I swing through impact so I guess you can call me a hinger
The clubs are a lot lighter than the perimeter weighted Callaway knock-offs I have been playing for 5 years (extended by 1.5 " each and the thickest possible grips). The Titleists Z's set up to the ball very clearly. My ball position is sharply back unless my stance is much narrower. The clubs have only one direction, DOWN.
These clubs seem to really bite down and really seem to emphasize LAG pressure on # 3 PP. Once I feel the pressure engage, I drive my shoulder, hip or elbow DOWN, or I pull/drive the axe handle down, and the clubs is down and through before I know it except for a really loud, flat "Klack-ZZZ" sound. The clubs seem very light, and almost dare a person to see how powerfully they can be sent DOWN and UP and Around!.
There is no doubt as to the direction of the shot. If I stay on PLANE, the ball goes straight and high! There was plenty of light at 4:30 p.m. tonight, but the ball just got smaller a lot faster! My Callaway knock-offs are "high trajectory" but these Z's are every bit as high in ball flight, unless I want to punch the ball low.
Punching the ball low seems much easier. As a matter of fact, the ball seems to do whatever my #3 PP makes it do! LOL
So that's why people play this kind of club!
Any tips for using these, or things to watch?
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
The clubs are a lot lighter than the perimeter weighted Callaway knock-offs I have been playing for 5 years (extended by 1.5 " each and the thickest possible grips). The Titleists Z's set up to the ball very clearly. My ball position is sharply back unless my stance is much narrower. The clubs have only one direction, DOWN.
These clubs seem to really bite down and really seem to emphasize LAG pressure on # 3 PP. Once I feel the pressure engage, I drive my shoulder, hip or elbow DOWN, or I pull/drive the axe handle down, and the clubs is down and through before I know it except for a really loud, flat "Klack-ZZZ" sound. The clubs seem very light, and almost dare a person to see how powerfully they can be sent DOWN and UP and Around!.
There is no doubt as to the direction of the shot. If I stay on PLANE, the ball goes straight and high! There was plenty of light at 4:30 p.m. tonight, but the ball just got smaller a lot faster! My Callaway knock-offs are "high trajectory" but these Z's are every bit as high in ball flight, unless I want to punch the ball low.
Punching the ball low seems much easier. As a matter of fact, the ball seems to do whatever my #3 PP makes it do! LOL
So that's why people play this kind of club!
Any tips for using these, or things to watch?
ICT
My swing: I start out with Hula left and Impact Fix. RFT/EA/ BRW leads club to shoulder high top. LAG crashes against #3 PP. I post my front leg float loading and carry the LAG until I sweep release (fire right arm and spin the wheel) or wait until the BRW stretches out with LAG and punch the elbow/forearm through the ball (right through the ball) faster than the BRW can think to un-cock!
With these ZB's, my head must be stable. Ball position is off my buckle and forward for hybrids and driver. I found a true dirt driving range. Grass stains on the middle of the club faces on irons and all clubs but driver! I haven't tried to work the ball yet. It's been too much fun not pulling/pushing/ slicing ball!
The range balls fly directly where I aim the LAG (BRW/# 3 PP) on a rope! Houston, we have a problem. I hit a pitching wedge or two today that rolled about 140 after a right at the pin howitzer shot trajectory. I lost sight of the 7 iron after it flew over the 150 yard marker on it's way up. Then I lost sight of the 6-4 irons well past the 175 yard marker in the air.
I always knew that my swing would be sound if I could hit the old Hogan Apexs. Standing Hula with my leg shortness in front must really magnify my LAG. I punched the Apex 3-1ron from inside my left heel to the end of this range on the fly. Mountain climbing! I wanted to hit the ZB 1iron if they make one!
The hybrids (2 and 3) were high and long though the ball was not moving quite as fast off those clubs. Old ADams 3 and 5 wood were bullets as was the Adams Speedline driver.
Being at an all dirt/grass facility really helped me simply fire my elbow/forearm through the ball. Yes, I measured my divots and their shape. While spinning the rim, the divots flare right of the target line and are the width of the blade at the end (the divot gets wider at the end). The end is past the impact strike by 3" and longer when I punch the elbow through the ground! I'm not sure what it is "supposed" to be but my Hula set-up (slightly open) helps me imagine the " angled fish hook" shape my BRW will make as my elbow/forearm shoots through the ball and ground.
If I don't stay down through the strike, my hands sting. So, I stay down and let the club drag me around. The ZB's metal mass make feeling the LAG easier on my # 3 PP and a maintaining the lag easier as I drive/punch the elbow through. When I simply watch the club go through the ball, there is very little feeling and a satisfying sound.
Just for yucks, I ended the day by flipping my BRW back to shoulder level and firing my elbow in almost one continuous motion. I got the idea from watching the pro's waggle only substituting the elbow thrust for down move.It feels very much like my college tennis forehand did but with a stable head. The ball keeps going up and down range! I'll need to work out the new distances and get a gap and sand wedge!
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Last edited by innercityteacher : 11-12-2010 at 01:43 AM.
Just for yucks, I ended the day by flipping my BRW back to shoulder level and firing my elbow in almost one continuous motion. I got the idea from watching the pro's waggle only substituting the elbow thrust for down move.It feels very much like my college tennis forehand did but with a stable head. The ball keeps going up and down range! I'll need to work out the new distances and get a gap and sand wedge!
Hybrid Mode
