I think that "enough" consideration of component compatability is often lost! Compatability? Although components may have numerous variations their Compatability with preceeding and following componentn variations gets lost. This thread may be a fine example of that. Shoulder action, hip action etc. are likely very dependent on , such as, Address position, Adjusted?, FIX, etc. and very dependent on elbow position, Pitch?, Punch?, etc. So I more likely think to myself "how does that component variation selection FIT between the "bookend" components (with their selected variation). HK I am sure you said that, in a very articulate way, probably in the Preface. But I aint't gona look for it BECAUSE I think that EVERYONE should REDISCOVER that on their own.
HB
If Rotated/Rotated and a Weight Shift are incompatible does that mean that you shouldnt Rotate on the way back? That some Rotated/? combo is ill advised? In that Tom Watson's secret video he describes Rotated but then shows us a Rotated backswing , hip slide and that aint Rotated any more, Tom.
If Rotated/Rotated and a Weight Shift are incompatible does that mean that you shouldnt Rotate on the way back? That some Rotated/? combo is ill advised? In that Tom Watson's secret video he describes Rotated but then shows us a Rotated backswing , hip slide and that aint Rotated any more, Tom.
Rotated/Rotated was short shots only, wasnt it?
O.B.
My thinking: No, No, No,
1-L can do R/R, and LONG shots, but, not musch else- no shift or slide etc.
1-L can do R/R, and LONG shots, but, not musch else- no shift or slide etc.
HB
1-L? The Machine? It doesnt have two Shoulders how can it do Rotated? You talking Angled Hinge arrangement?
Its a model , only, a good one too for understanding the inherent geometry of an Angular Motion on an Inclined Plane with a Hinge Action. But we're talking human motion now arent we? More levers?
So you saying you can do Rotated/Rotated with an axis tilt, a hip slide , a weight shift? I dont think so. Once the right shoulder drops via the hip slide axis tilt .......it isnt Rotated on the way down any more.
The helicopter blades do not describe single plane of motion back and down, when you tilt your axis. Good thing too , to my mind. I like to get the Right Shoulder closer to the ball and tilt its plane of motion towards the ball/plane line.
1-L? The Machine? It doesnt have two Shoulders how can it do Rotated? You talking Angled Hinge arrangement?
Once the right shoulder drops via the hip slide axis tilt .......it isnt Rotated on the way down any more.
The helicopter blades do not describe single plane of motion back and down, when you tilt your axis. Good thing too , to my mind. I like to get the Right Shoulder closer to the ball and tilt its plane of motion towards the ball/plane line.
1-L is THE golfing machine right? there isn't a shoulder joint that moves the hinge pin away from the axis . . .
The hips can slide forward and the hip slant and shoulder slant not immediately "spin the fly wheel" . . . you'll see this in lots of players . . . hips and shoulders maintain their slant as the hips move forward . . .
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Last edited by 12 piece bucket : 03-11-2011 at 12:52 AM.
The hips can slide forward and the hip slant and shoulder slant not immediately "spin the fly wheel" . . . you'll see this in lots of players . . . hips and shoulders maintain their slant as the hips move forward . . .
Just re reading this. Slide with a Delayed Turn (Hogan) will not spin the fly wheel agreed. You can not spin without turning. Turning, the Pivot as a giant rotor, ground up sequence, one of the two divergent vectors etc.
But the Slide of the Hips given a centered head will tilt the right shoulder closer to the ground , or given forward waist bend down plane towards the ball.
Buck baby, I think you are talking shoulder "slant" looking DTL while Im talking "tilt" caddy view? Maybe? I dunno.
Imagine Hogan unsliding his hips in that first pic below his right shoulder would move up, no? Wouldnt be Hogan anymore, man that guy had a great set of hips.
I dunno. Its way easier to see this shoulder axis tilt when the shoulders arent turned like they are Top. Thats why I picked that one there at impact. But the same tilt is there prior to Startdown for Hogan.
PS just noticed the ellipses have a slide depicted ....never noticed that before. See how the Hip ellipse has slid target wards. That guy knew exactly what he was doing to include that in the drawing. Or not, whats up with the following ones though? What the.... Looks like he's hitting downhill all of a sudden mid swing. Hmmm editorial maybe? Hoover's FBI maybe? Didnt want the commies getting ahold of our golf secrets. Yup .....its all making sense to me now.
very nice OB! good ole VJ Trolio knows a little bit about that action
For sure I was really enjoying his book till I lent it to my brother. Homer and Lynn have taught it for decades now. Hip Slide with a Delayed Turn. To me this is the second "Clear the Right Hip" of 12-3. The thing that could have fixed Tigers "stuck"'position maybe? Hogan cleared a path for his Right Elbow, Moe try to clear one that you could drive a truck through. Pitch elbow requires room which I think relates to that move they both display in Buckets videos maybe.
Axis Tilting gets the Right Shoulder down which is great but the associated Slide shifts the weight, centers up the Axis of rotation over the left side like vj pointed out and with the still turned back right hip creates a lane for the insie out delivery path of the right forearm, the elbow being the problem.
Took me years to realize this problem could create Release to avoid the collision. Is this another reason a lot of good golfers dip their Heads? To create a wider lane?
Sorry for going off topic............
P.S. To get it all on topic: If the Flat Back turn of the Right Shoulder in Startup cant make it all the way over to your desired plane at Impact (shaft plane probably, ideally) then the Slide (with the Delayed Turn) will get it there or at the very least closer. Failing that you could Vertical Drop, Shift Down to a lower plane or come in on a higher plane than your shaft plane.
This is all based on Plane Shifting be "hazardous" which it is, theoretically, although it can be trained and engrained obviously. Homer did define everything from zero shift to more planes than an airport to non shaft planar all together.
1-L? The Machine? It doesnt have two Shoulders how can it do Rotated? You talking Angled Hinge arrangement?
Its a model , only, a good one too for understanding the inherent geometry of an Angular Motion on an Inclined Plane with a Hinge Action. But we're talking human motion now arent we? More levers?
So you saying you can do Rotated/Rotated with an axis tilt, a hip slide , a weight shift? I dont think so. Once the right shoulder drops via the hip slide axis tilt .......it isnt Rotated on the way down any more.
The helicopter blades do not describe single plane of motion back and down, when you tilt your axis. Good thing too , to my mind. I like to get the Right Shoulder closer to the ball and tilt its plane of motion towards the ball/plane line.
O.B.
As I understand it "Rotated" is Turning around the post. 1-L. In either direction. I think one could "relocate" (tilt, shift etc.) the shoulders at almost any point as long as the TURN is around the post and NOT around a TILT axis. You can also get the shoulder closer to the ball by leaning the post towards the ball.
I could be wrong, but I don't think 1L is the chapter in the book I would use to compare components. 1L covers the basic geometry. I think it's difficult to use 1L to explain things like shoulder, feet, knee, and hip components. I think you may be painting yourself into a corner by not looking further in this discussion...
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I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
When I see "Rotated" I think 10-13-C which is, turn around the spine or could be turn about a post.
I see little use but it is possible and would be 1-L. this would not be on a practical plane for full swings.
The original question on FLAT and Rotated BS planes ( where the rotated plane may be too steep) I would answer is because it intercepts a starting point for a practical DS plane.
Most think this to be the TSP. I think of TSP as being a point-any point- from which a practical DS plane can be constructed.
Not that I really want to get into this here but--
Trying to create a machine that represents all elements of the golf stroke is difficult. Most attempts have resorted to the "Double Pendulum" model. In my simple mind- NOT GOOD. I have been thinking along the lines of HAND PATH GEOMETRY and single pendulum. And if the hand path geometry can be expressed as a mathematically determined figure the computer (real computer) is "home free.
So, I started thinking as the Hand Path Model being Hyperboloid of single sheet and the club is simple pendulum
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Hybrid Mode
