You wrote-: "as per another one of your threads, axis tilt as defined in TGM assumes the head is centered. The ability to do this is a display of "Hula hula flexibility" with the hips and a resulting tilt of shoulders."
I don't understand why axis tilt implies that the head be centered.
I prefer Yoda's advice given in post#16.
Jeff.
Jeff
Quite right, instead of "Centered", I should have written "motionless" or similar.
Axis tilt as defined in the glossary:
"To change the plane of the Shoulder Turn without moving the Head, the golfer must tilt the Shoulder Axis by moving the Hips"
As for preferring Yodas posts to mine I can only say that I am outraged.
But I like Henny am wondering why anyone would want to have a compensated swing that held his head back in fix etc. To what end? Why not manage low point better and move the ball up in the stance with the head or pivot center in its uncompensated alignment?
You asked-: "But I like Henny am wondering why anyone would want to have a compensated swing that held his head back in fix etc. To what end? Why not manage low point better and move the ball up in the stance with the head or pivot center in its uncompensated alignment?"
That's a good question. I will express my biased opinion, which is based on human biomechanics.
I agree with Yoda that the ideal swing is to stay centered within one's stance. As Yoda pointed out in a previous post, look at the great three players - Player, Palmer, Nicklaus - and note how they pivot around an imaginary pivot axis that is centralised between the feet. I think that approach works very well for ALL golfers for iron shots and most golfers for driver swings.
However, if a very flexible golfer, who has a lot of hula hula flexibility, wants to drive the ball a very long way, then there is a mechanical advantage to having a great deal of secondary axis tilt at impact.
Here are a series of photos of Jamie Sadlowski from the latest issue of GD magazine. He recently won the 2008 Long Drive Competition with a drive of 418 yards.
Note how much secondary axis tilt he has at impact. I think that he needs that much secondary axis tilt to stay in balance - considering the force of forward momentum of his arms/clubshaft that are swinging towards the target. I previously argued that a golfer needs to have a braced skeletal structure (from the top of the stationary head -through the spine-through the pelvis-down the left leg to the left foot) at impact. I think that Sadlowski anticipates the need for that braced skeletal structure, and its shape, at impact, and he therefore sets his head behind the center of his stance at address. Then he simply needs to keep his head stationary as he swings into impact against a firm supportive (braced) left leg and a braced rightwards-tilted spine that is kept braced by a stationary head.
That's why I think that HK was very wise to allow for that need in special circumstances - by stating that one should start with one's head at the anticipated impact location. Most of the time that will mean a stationary head centralised in the stance, but under special circumstances (as above) it may be better to have one's head right-of-center.
Jeff.
p.s. The Gulbis photo was posted as a joke - and it is equivalent to recommending Furyk's steep off-plane backswing clubshaft movement as a role model for the average golfer. Although HK catalogued that backswing variation in his book, I presume that he would recommend a backswing plane in the steepness range that is some where between the elbow plane and the turned shoulder plane.
I think I saw this guy do an expo at the tour event in Moline. Don't remember the name, but he looks about the same. He was flying it about 370. He also missed the entire range about half the time. He had no idea where it was going. They also play with drivers in the 5 degree loft range.
Long drive guys just have to get one of six in the grid.
Note how much secondary axis tilt he has at impact. I think that he needs that much secondary axis tilt to stay in balance - considering the force of forward momentum of his arms/clubshaft that are swinging towards the target.
Jeff.
Jeff
The other other way at looking at this is that he is managing his low point for the shot at hand. The ball forward of low point, his head back in an effort to launch a sky high ball for extreme distance. An artificial uphill type shot. The ball struck on the upswing, the ball teed high and inside the base of the plane. Hes probably is trying to minimize spin with a low lofted club.
This is a special procedure as per Yodas post #16 , a compensated swing, as described by Homer.
What sort of machine would this make for? In my opinion one that was designed to hit the ball on the upswing, at red lined rpms, with a wobble at the top and the bottom. A special purposes machine subject to a lot of strain , breakdowns , inconsistency etc. More of a dragster than a Mercedes. When it doesnt blow up or crash its fast and long for sure.
By the way, Im no doctor but would not recommend that you set your machine up like this if you have a bad back, Jeff.
"Hi it’s Jason Zuback, five-time Remax World Long Drive Champion, with another golf tip. You’ve probably heard a lot of Tour coaches talking about the stack and tilt philosophy. What I’m going to try and do is simplify that and just call it turning around a central axis, meaning that when we are trying to generate the maximum amount of power we don’t want to sway too far off the golf ball.
"When we sway too far off the golf ball we tend to lose our contact, meaning inconsistent contact, hitting it all over the face and not getting as much energy transfer, but as well what we lose is some of that coil, the tension that’s created, that torque that helps propel our body and eventually the golf ball with the maximum velocity.
"I’m a scientist, my background is as a pharmacist and I look at a lot of data from all over, I look at the best longest hitters on the PGA Tour to guys that hit it real far a long time ago, to current guys who really bash it out there, as well as current long drive champions. And without a doubt the one constant thing that they all do that you can emulate in your own golf swing is they turn around that central axis. They are not swaying too far off the golf ball. A little movement is OK, but move a long way and you’re losing power, you’re losing contact, ultimately you’re losing distance and velocity.
Here is the link of video:
Any comment?
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If you cannot take the shoulder down the clubshaft plane, you must take along some other path and add compensations - now, instead of one motion to remember, you wind up with at least two!
The other other way at looking at this is that he is managing his low point for the shot at hand.
I like the managing low point observation. Along similar lines, the first thing I thought of when I saw that sequence was that he's doing everything he can to make his left arm radius 'fit' between his shoulder and the ground - see how bent his left arm is.
"Hi it’s Jason Zuback, five-time Remax World Long Drive Champion, with another golf tip. You’ve probably heard a lot of Tour coaches talking about the stack and tilt philosophy. What I’m going to try and do is simplify that and just call it turning around a central axis, meaning that when we are trying to generate the maximum amount of power we don’t want to sway too far off the golf ball.
"When we sway too far off the golf ball we tend to lose our contact, meaning inconsistent contact, hitting it all over the face and not getting as much energy transfer, but as well what we lose is some of that coil, the tension that’s created, that torque that helps propel our body and eventually the golf ball with the maximum velocity.
"I’m a scientist, my background is as a pharmacist and I look at a lot of data from all over, I look at the best longest hitters on the PGA Tour to guys that hit it real far a long time ago, to current guys who really bash it out there, as well as current long drive champions. And without a doubt the one constant thing that they all do that you can emulate in your own golf swing is they turn around that central axis. They are not swaying too far off the golf ball. A little movement is OK, but move a long way and you’re losing power, you’re losing contact, ultimately you’re losing distance and velocity.
Here is the link of video:
Any comment?
So he's a scientist? And after thorough research he's determined to hit it long you want to stay centered? OK - Fascinating stuff- I mean this is ground breaking stuff! But wait - he does hit it long so he must know what he is doing- I'm going to go to the range and try it out - I'll be back.
OK I'm back- WOW! It really did work - I was hitting it another 40 yards off the tee- I drove two par four's and usually I have a full wedge into those holes!
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Life Goal- Developing a new theory of movement based on Brain Science
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"Hi it’s Jason Zuback, five-time Remax World Long Drive Champion, with another golf tip. You’ve probably heard a lot of Tour coaches talking about the stack and tilt philosophy. What I’m going to try and do is simplify that and just call it turning around a central axis, meaning that when we are trying to generate the maximum amount of power we don’t want to sway too far off the golf ball.
"When we sway too far off the golf ball we tend to lose our contact, meaning inconsistent contact, hitting it all over the face and not getting as much energy transfer, but as well what we lose is some of that coil, the tension that’s created, that torque that helps propel our body and eventually the golf ball with the maximum velocity.
"I’m a scientist, my background is as a pharmacist and I look at a lot of data from all over, I look at the best longest hitters on the PGA Tour to guys that hit it real far a long time ago, to current guys who really bash it out there, as well as current long drive champions. And without a doubt the one constant thing that they all do that you can emulate in your own golf swing is they turn around that central axis. They are not swaying too far off the golf ball. A little movement is OK, but move a long way and you’re losing power, you’re losing contact, ultimately you’re losing distance and velocity.
Here is the link of video:
Any comment?
Thanks for taking time to transcribe this video, KOC. Above and beyond the call of duty!
Love your posts, HennyB. In your life on the PGA TOUR, you've probably seen more great golf swings -- and more Golf Instructors, great and not-so-great -- than anybody on this site. Don't hold back on your insights . . .
The other other way at looking at this is that he is managing his low point for the shot at hand. The ball forward of low point, his head back in an effort to launch a sky high ball for extreme distance. An artificial uphill type shot. The ball struck on the upswing, the ball teed high and inside the base of the plane. Hes probably is trying to minimize spin with a low lofted club.e
This is a special procedure as per Yodas post #16 , a compensated swing, as described by Homer.
Good job, O.B. Left. These were the determining "Excessive Axis Tilt" factors that jumped out at me. In other words, the extreme condition evidenced in Jamie's swing is the result of his specialized procedure designed to minimize spin, not a need to stay "in balance".
Backspin is Compression Leakage. Under normal circumstances, it is a desired effect that results in Ball Control. But 'long drive' contestants are far more interested in Distance than Accuracy. Hence, they attempt to minimize Backspin, and in so doing, produce the near-equivalent of the baseball pitcher's knuckleball. A teed, intentional "flyer".
Interestingly, Deane Beaman, the former PGA TOUR Commissioner and also a former U.S. Amateur Champion and TOUR player, on several occasions beat Jack Nicklaus (and everybody else) in the exhibition long-drive contests held at various TOUR stops. What makes this a big deal is that Deane was one of the shortest hitters on TOUR! His secret? He would deliberately hit the ground just before impact, create a grass-driven flier, and let the 'no spin' knuckleball effect take care of the distance.
The long-drivers of today are accomplishing much the same thing . . .
But wait - he does hit it long so he must know what he is doing- I'm going to go to the range and try it out - I'll be back.
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