Its a bit of a chicken and egg thing I guess and very big topic. Biomechanics etc. I love the David Orr RFT video. Thought provoking.
I'd say the Knudsons, Doyles and McHattons of the world already have very educated hands. For them the pivot maybe is supplying a supporting force, to the arms travel. I can see the pivot throwing the arms "back" and "in" but not "up" for instance. There must be something else going on to get the arms up. I think.
For the rest of us mortals if the pivot is throwing the hands off in the wrong direction (normally too far "in" or under the plane ) then I think we should put our minds in our hands and let our brain work with them. Extensor action really helped me with all of this.
Anyways Ill let the bigger brained pro's wade in here, if they feel so inclined.
For the rest of us mortals if the pivot is throwing the hands off in the wrong direction (normally too far "in" or under the plane ) then I think we should put our minds in our hands and let our brain work with them.
Left undirected, the Hands go where the Right Shoulder goes.
In Start Up, that means "inside" the Line. But, the Hands have a choice . . .
And that choice, as the Right Shoulder rotates back -- toward the Plane -- is to point the Sweetspot at the Straight Plane Line.
From the Top, if the Right Shoulder rotates off the Plane -- "outside" the Line instead of toward the Ball -- then the Hands have no choice . . .
They must go along. Geometry -- however On Plane intentioned -- is no match for Off Plane Physics.
Fortunately, Educated Hands understand this phenomenon and control it.
Integrate the Start Down Waggle -- 3-F-5 per 8-7 and 12-3-0 / 7-- into your Pre-Shot Routine.
I am working on swinging procedure...my perception of "Educated hands" means F.L.V. at address; Cock and Uncock; turn and roll; right wrist bent...monitor the hands instead of the clubhead/clubface...unless we have a very funny grip, centripetal/centrifugal; club design...together with plenty of Look Look Look practice sessions, I think the mission of Hands can be accomplished.
Homer emphatically stated in 9-1:- Hands are not educated until they control the Pivot...and in the same chapter, those pictures show the pivot motion without hands and arms commend.
I also feel that variations of Foot; Knee; and Hip action, flat vs rotated shoulder turn affect the arms and hands path...if we use grabbing a cup off the top shelf in the kitchen and see how the body works, we might not have so much variations….
In my case, I lately try to ingrain V.J. missing piece of work and I have a quite a strong feeling that force from the ground up made my swing start and end. Shots are solid...190 yards par 3 head wind with an 5-i almost got my first ace last Sat ...but like drewitgolf said…Can the club be moved on the Plane, the issue stills lie in the execution or I am still missing something or wrong.
KOC
__________________
If you cannot take the shoulder down the clubshaft plane, you must take along some other path and add compensations - now, instead of one motion to remember, you wind up with at least two!
Its a journey we are on. Im glad to be on it with you and others. Sometimes words fail us but we must keep going. At the end we will sit around and share our stories.
Each of us has his own vessel to fill. Be water my friend.
ob
Left undirected, the Hands go where the Right Shoulder goes.
In Start Up, that means "inside" the Line. But, the Hands have a choice . . .
And that choice, as the Right Shoulder rotates back -- toward the Plane -- is to point the Sweetspot at the Straight Plane Line.
From the Top, if the Right Shoulder rotates off the Plane -- "outside" the Line instead of toward the Ball -- then the Hands have no choice . . .
They must go along. Geometry -- however On Plane intentioned -- is no match for Off Plane Physics.
Fortunately, Educated Hands understand this phenomenon and control it.
Integrate the Start Down Waggle -- 3-F-5 per 8-7 and 12-3-0 / 7-- into your Pre-Shot Routine.
This is another level of understanding. Until now, Id thought of hands to pivot in regard to the backswing. The on plane move of the right shoulder in start down as hands to pivot too...............hmmmm.....of course.
This is one of those pieces of the swing that I doubt I ever would have ever gotten right on my own. The folding right arm started much earlier and felt much more 'up' than I ever imagined, even after reading dozens of posts on the right forarm pickup (I had a 'duh' moment at Cuscowilla with this one). There is a lot of seemingly conflicting pieces of advice around this topic and it's easy to lose site of just tracing the plane line - eg. use less pivot and let the hands lead vs. use more to be sure and clear the right hip, don't lift the arms vs. lift the club from the start, etc... For me extensor action with an earlier bending, 'lifting' right arm was the trick that helped my pivot start taking orders from my hands on the way back. For the most part, the right arm is just folding up and down, and the pivot responds as needed to my intent to trace the plane line. Again for me that meant a little more active right arm and pivot with less active hands, but I imagine it could be totally different for others.
This is one of those pieces of the swing that I doubt I ever would have ever gotten right on my own. The folding right arm started much earlier and felt much more 'up' than I ever imagined, even after reading dozens of posts on the right forarm pickup (I had a 'duh' moment at Cuscowilla with this one). There is a lot of seemingly conflicting pieces of advice around this topic and it's easy to lose site of just tracing the plane line - eg. use less pivot and let the hands lead vs. use more to be sure and clear the right hip, don't lift the arms vs. lift the club from the start, etc... For me extensor action with an earlier bending, 'lifting' right arm was the trick that helped my pivot start taking orders from my hands on the way back. For the most part, the right arm is just folding up and down, and the pivot responds as needed to my intent to trace the plane line. Again for me that meant a little more active right arm and pivot with less active hands, but I imagine it could be totally different for others.
Thanks, Ben.
There is a terrific video in your post. It may not be 'Moses at The Parting', but for TGMers, it would be close.
My incongruent economic lives -- and my own inertia -- collide in this deficit.
Bam Bam isn't the only one that had a ah ha at Cuscowilla. McHatton says there is no "up" in the golf swing ! Other past teachers all the way back to Ballard had implied the same. I though the pivot put the hands where they needed to go at the top. Since I received "permission to bend the left arm"(left handed golfer) at Cuscowilla and "drink a beer" it has made more sense. I always wondered how the hands got up with a flat shoulder turn. Bend over more and the hands would go more up than around etc. At my age it is critical that my failing brain is not exposed to wrong information. I want just the facts, cut to the chase. I am glad yoda posed his questions and redirected things. Now it is time to hear his answers to his own questions and a summary of the good posts of others. There have been many. Ben Doyle talked about "golf thoughts", tennis thoughts, bike riding thoughts etc". I am convinced that the golf thoughts of, and those endorsed by competent TGMers would be a usable manual for all. Golf thoughts of non TGMers are best left to them. I come to this site to etch in my brain facts I know are reliable and to erase those that are not. Oh, is it true that the Brits are eliminating the apostrophe ??
I'm still a little shaky on how to trace the plane line with the #3 pp. But as a side note to the previous discussion on pivot to hands vs hands to pivot, it occurs to me that if your mind is on you pivot , tracing is likely non existent. Is that right?
I'm still a little shaky on how to trace the plane line with the #3 pp. But as a side note to the previous discussion on pivot to hands vs hands to pivot, it occurs to me that if your mind is on you pivot , tracing is likely non existent or problematic at best. Is that right? Although still better than monitoring the clubhead.
Here is a YodasLuke post from my old TGM file. I dont have the 7th edition but find this interesting.
...but like drewitgolf said…Can the club be moved on the Plane, the issue stills lie in the execution or I am still missing something or wrong.
Linear Mode
