Much of the difference between the TSP and Elbow Plane is Posture. Add a little #3 Accumulator Angle and Shazam!...
So if the Left Wristcock is Level for Impact, then what is the difference between a TSP and Elbow Plane?
Originally Posted by dodger
Best thread in a long time. Interesting question. I follow David Sandridge's thoughts explicitly regarding the right hip clearing on the backswing. I have tended to turn the right shoulder too flat. Clearing the right hip on the backswing while moving the left shoulder down puts me in the position I need to be at the top. It is rotated appearing, but only because of my spine angle at setup. The more you bend from the waist, the more rotated you look. I clear the right hip at startup, my hands move in and up on plane and the shoulders do what they do according to my hands. My hands do not control the hip clearing which may be why Homer focuses on the rt hip clearing as a separate movement from the hands. But, the shoulders go where the hands tell them. Set-up, clear right hip, move hands back in and up on plane and the shoulder ends up pretty good. The pics of Toms and Goosen are illustrative because Goosen bends over a little more and his face is angled more to the ground. Interesting to hear Yoda's take, considering his recent talk on hands controlled pivot.
Man, so many wonderful comments from so many. I can't find anybody's bandwagon to not jump on. Bucket has become the master of personalizing these components for each individual. Isn't that what the machine is all about?
In my mind, if you look at Mr. Gay's shoulder turn as compared to Mr. Lovemarks, they are very similar in their inclination to the spine, which is exactly what I was trying to say. Bucket and Daryl do such a good job of showing it visually.
Thanks Guys!
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
ALIGNMENT G.O.L.F.
Last edited by KevCarter : 03-10-2011 at 10:46 AM.
Do you mean off plane or on plane but under Hogans sheet of glass?
Uh maybe I made this post a whole lot more complicated than it needed to be? And we havent even talked Rotated much or how you cant tilt the axis and still be Rotated ......
TSP's , Standard Shoulder Turn..........pure genius. I think, assuming I understand 'em.
Yea, off plane, right shoulder and hands are on the TSP at top but then go under both the TSP and Elbow plane. Great fix for the slice until it turns into a hook.
Its a poor Zone 1 issue, then throw in a poor right shoulder motion. I have found though the better the right shoulder works (on plane) the less a Zone 1 issue is created. When I miss around with Rotated Shoulder turn it seems to create a better alignment with the shoulders on the downswing.........but it feels like crap to me, less powerful as well.
__________________
"The only real shortcuts are more and more know how"...TGM
Yea, off plane, right shoulder and hands are on the TSP at top but then go under both the TSP and Elbow plane. Great fix for the slice until it turns into a hook.
Its a poor Zone 1 issue, then throw in a poor right shoulder motion. I have found though the better the right shoulder works (on plane) the less a Zone 1 issue is created. When I miss around with Rotated Shoulder turn it seems to create a better alignment with the shoulders on the downswing.........but it feels like crap to me, less powerful as well.
LOL
Reminds me of a comment from YODA. Rotated Shoulder Turn is great, as long as you always play down wind.
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
The difference in Right Forearm alignments at the delivery position are pretty drastic in those pictures. I always thought the ideal was Lovemark because its pointing at the ball and not coming in "too high"....I think reading this my understanding is wrong....is it just a matter of being on plane at impact?
I agree with Bucket on the right shoulder on the downswing, going back to his epic thread a few months ago.
__________________
"The only real shortcuts are more and more know how"...TGM
Man, so many wonderful comments from so many. I can't find anybody's bandwagon to not jump on. Bucket has become the master of personalizing these components for each individual. Isn't that what the machine is all about?
In my mind, if you look at Mr. Gay's shoulder turn as compared to Mr. Lovemarks, they are very similar in their inclination to the spine, which is exactly what I was trying to say. Bucket and Daryl do such a good job of showing it visually.
Thanks Guys!
Kevin
yea, Im diggin all the info as well....thanks fellas!
I think that "enough" consideration of component compatability is often lost! Compatability? Although components may have numerous variations their Compatability with preceeding and following componentn variations gets lost. This thread may be a fine example of that. Shoulder action, hip action etc. are likely very dependent on , such as, Address position, Adjusted?, FIX, etc. and very dependent on elbow position, Pitch?, Punch?, etc. So I more likely think to myself "how does that component variation selection FIT between the "bookend" components (with their selected variation). HK I am sure you said that, in a very articulate way, probably in the Preface. But I aint't gona look for it BECAUSE I think that EVERYONE should REDISCOVER that on their own.
Is it just me or does Brian look a tad laid off there at Top? Dont think Ive seen that in any of his recent swings. Ever so slightly arched?
Any who both those guys get on their Impact Plane Angles really early .......the sooner the better to my mind. Both have a very minimal shift from Top to get down there too......also a very good thing to my mind.
In the first frame Brian is TSP'n it , in the second frame he's TSP and has dropped down to his Impact Plane Angle so he has shifted if ever so slightly during Startdown. Double shift but very minimal in terms of degrees ......something I think makes good sense if shifting is hazardous.
Lovemark's Rotated but doesnt shift much either. I say Rotated but if he Slides and Tilts his Axis it wont be Rotated by definition anymore. Not sure if he does that or not. If he does it Rotated/Down combo maybe even though its not actually planed like Bucket says? Still dont have my book with me to look up the proper terminology.
Anyways in regard to this posts initial question: Look at Brian Gays first frame there. Since we're talking Homer and Lynn around here assume he wants a TSP angle at Top. (And I do have to state a preference for them personally) He's got himself on one there nicely, fairly close to his Impact Plane Angle which D has drawn for us right? Not much of a shift required therefore.
Now imagine him making a steeper turn of the shoulders in Startup.......in doing so he'll find a TSP angle which is further away from the Impact Plane Angle , the red line there....... Requiring a bigger shift on the way down in terms of degrees. Bigger shift bigger hazard. Thats my final answer on Flat back, why?
Im interested in other opinions .......Rotated , Right Shoulder above Plane .....interesting stuff.
I think that "enough" consideration of component compatability is often lost! Compatability? Although components may have numerous variations their Compatability with preceeding and following componentn variations gets lost. This thread may be a fine example of that. Shoulder action, hip action etc. are likely very dependent on , such as, Address position, Adjusted?, FIX, etc. and very dependent on elbow position, Pitch?, Punch?, etc. So I more likely think to myself "how does that component variation selection FIT between the "bookend" components (with their selected variation). HK I am sure you said that, in a very articulate way, probably in the Preface. But I aint't gona look for it BECAUSE I think that EVERYONE should REDISCOVER that on their own.
HB
If Rotated/Rotated and a Weight Shift are incompatible does that mean that you shouldnt Rotate on the way back? That some Rotated/? combo is ill advised? In that Tom Watson's secret video he describes Rotated but then shows us a Rotated backswing , hip slide and that aint Rotated any more, Tom.
If Rotated/Rotated and a Weight Shift are incompatible does that mean that you shouldnt Rotate on the way back? That some Rotated/? combo is ill advised? In that Tom Watson's secret video he describes Rotated but then shows us a Rotated backswing , hip slide and that aint Rotated any more, Tom.
Rotated/Rotated was short shots only, wasnt it?
O.B.
My thinking: No, No, No,
1-L can do R/R, and LONG shots, but, not musch else- no shift or slide etc.
The difference in Right Forearm alignments at the delivery position are pretty drastic in those pictures. I always thought the ideal was Lovemark because its pointing at the ball and not coming in "too high"....I think reading this my understanding is wrong....is it just a matter of being on plane at impact?
I agree with Bucket on the right shoulder on the downswing, going back to his epic thread a few months ago.
HK said that the TSP offers more Right Shoulder support than the Elbow Plane.
How does that happen? Well, it's an Alignment.
If you stand behind the Golfer (during Impact) and look down his Right Shoulder, down the Angle of Approach of his Right Forearm, are the #3 PP, Elbow and Right Shoulder in Alignment to the Angle of Approach. It doesn't mean that the Right Shoulder stays On-Plane all the way until Impact or how high or low the Right Forearm. And, you can't measure that from drawn lines of a down the line view as in the photos of these two golfers.
To see if you're getting Right Shoulder support, tie a string from your Right Shoulder to your #3 PP, and imagine a vertical plane of the string. Then at Impact, is your Elbow aligned/touching that String Plane?
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